More Convincing Evidence of the Pretrib Rapture

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by skypair, Sep 12, 2008.

  1. skypair

    skypair
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    I posted this thought on another website and it seemed to attract a lot of attention. I'll try to show the evidence as simply as possible and the let others give their thoughts as to whether they see it or not.

    In Hebrews (in fact, in many places in the Bible) we are told that heaven reflects what is going on in the earth regarding God's dealing with man. Ex: When Jesus arose, He entered the Holy of holies in heaven as our Great High Priest to present the Sacrifice of His blood for sin.

    So what's going on up there now? during this church age? Well, we have someone who has been there and come back with a "report" -- Paul, 2Cor 12:1-4. In Heb 12:22-24, he appears to report what we all would see if we were to die or be raptured -- " But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel." Note carefully: heavenly Jerusalem -- assembly of the church -- Mediator of the new covenant -- His blood of sprinkling.

    Now let's go look at what John saw in Rev 4-16. Twenty four elders (on the order of the priests of Israel) - the Lamb (not Christ) - no assembly of the church - no Jerusalem. And this is just Rev 4-5. In Rev 6-16, the whole background is of the tabernacle and the incense and blood offering or the altar and proceding via the sea of glass (sometimes a "firey" sea of glass) into the Holy of holies and, as when the tabernacles of old were consecrated, the smoke that bade no one enter!

    What is all this saying? It tells us that God is dealing with ISRAEL on the earth vs. Paul's time, the church era or dispensation, when Christ was "outfitting" heavenly Jerusalem with out "manions!"

    Do ya see it? Come the trib, we're OUTTA HERE! :applause:

    skypair
     
  2. Amy.G

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    Sky, what verse are you talking about where the Lamb is not Christ?
     
  3. tinytim

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    And do you actually believe that Jesus is building us mansions right now?
     
  4. Jon-Marc

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    "The Lamb (not Christ)".

    Jesus the Christ IS the Lamb of God.
     
  5. Thinkingstuff

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    You consider that convincing??????

    A review of string theory is more convincing evidence of the rapture than that.
     
  6. annsni

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    One thing that I don't understand with the pre-trib rapture is this: When the rapture occurs, Jesus is coming back - the second coming. Then He'll come AGAIN after the tribulation? How does that work?
     
  7. Amy.G

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    I don't get that either. I think Jesus comes back once and takes His saints with Him. I don't think it will be some "secret" rapture either. The Bible makes it clear that there will be a loud trumpet blast and the sky will split open and the whole world will know it.
     
  8. DeafPosttrib

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    Skypair,

    2 Cor. 12:1-4 have do nothing with the timing of 'rapture'. This passage do not discuss about Second Advent, nothing at all. This passage talking about we have many different kinds of "spiritual gifts", yet we all have the SAME Holy Spirit, which dwells in us.

    Hebrews 12:22-24 have do nothing with the timing of 'rapture', neither it talk about Second Advent either.

    This passage talks about New Jerusalem, where God dwells there now, that we all shall dwell up there when after we die.

    Remember, there are difference between physical and spiritual of "Jersualem".

    In Old Testament, "Jerusalem' deals as physical city located in nation of Israel.

    In New Testament, "Jerusalem" deals as spiritual city located in heaven, which speak of our salvation, and where place that we shall dwell with God up there for eternal life.

    Heb. 12:22-24 is already happening right since Christ reconciled both Jews and Gentiles became one unity as God's family by Calvary - Ephesians chapter 2.

    To my understanding of 'twenty-four elders' of revelation chapter 4 are angelic beings as council. They are already sitting on 24 thrones round around the throne of Christ in Heaven since John's spirit was taken up by through his revelation(vision). That he did SAW them - 1900 years ago.

    "Hither up" is not talking about "rapture". Rev. 4:1-2 have do nothing with rapture or second Advent. Because the word- 'gathering together' or 'resurrection' are not mentioned in that chapter. John, himself alone was ASKED by angel by in his vision, to come up there. That was only his vision. Revelation chapter 4 have do nothing with rapture or Second Advent either. The scene of Revelation chapter 4 and 5 are talking about the activities around the throne of Christ in heaven. These are already happening long time ago since John saw them.

    Your argument with the 'evidence' of pretrib rapture shows with no point. That was your own logical. That why I do not agree with your interpreting.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  9. Thinkingstuff

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    Well, he has the training. I guess he's a qualified contractor. :laugh:
     
  10. skypair

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    It's not that the Lamb is not Christ -- it is that there was no ONE, no person, found in heaven to open the seals. Then the OT "lamb" appeared!

    Because of this, I have come to believe that Revelation is the revelation of the Lamb to ISRAEL -- Jesus, their Messiah!

    skypair
     
  11. skypair

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    Absolutely!! I believe what we do every day sends to Him the materials that He is using -- gold, silver, precious stones or wood, hay, and stubbble.

    Think about it this way, tim -- when we appear before the Bema, our "mansion" will already be constructed. We will be seeing at the Bema the eternal picture -- all at once -- what things we sent. But to me, day by day I am making "down payments" on my mansion.

    And think about this --- gold is what? The STREETS! Which is what? The way or the paths of NJ! What is gold? The wisdom and truths of God!!

    skypair
     
  12. skypair

    skypair
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    Ha-ha. The truth is such foolishness, isn't it?!

    I believe "vision" divides the divine from the temporal. Parables, mysteries, prophecy -- they're all "tests." We don't get them right early on but we do get to "correct them to 100%" as we live out our sanctification of the Spirit.

    skypair
     
  13. skypair

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    The OT understanding of "coming" is in victory over His enemies. The NT understanding is "in the air" but NOT to the earth. Therefore, context (NT/OT) reveals the manner. OT knew nothing about the rapture. They only knew about the resurrection of the just dead to earth.

    Both are future, BTW, and Mt 24 has to be read very carefully to distinguish which is being communicated by Christ in that "discourse."

    skypair
     
  14. Allan

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    I am quite limited on time lately but I wanted to address this.

    At the rapture, Jesus will not 'return' to earth and this is very important to understand and why it is not called or referenced as His second coming. Thus the rapture for the church (of all current believers) should not be confused with His second coming to deal with Israel and bring judgment to the world. The second coming of Jesus speaks specifically about His return and that is pertains to Him being 'ON' the earth, just as He came the first time (that is why it is called the 'second' coming).. He does come back physcially ans is seen in such places as Zach 14:3-4

    Then shall the LORD go forth,

    and fight against those nations,

    as when He fought in the day of battle.

    And His feet shall stand

    in that day upon the Mount of Olives,

    which is before Jerusalem on the east,

    and the Mount of Olives shall

    cleave in the midst thereof

    toward the east and toward the west,

    and there shall be a very great valley;

    and half of the Mount shall remove

    toward the north, and half of it


    BTW- this mountain is still whole and not yet cleaved in two.

    Where as in the rapture we go to meet Him in the air 1 Thes 4:13-18 and 1 Cor 15:50-54.


    As I stated previously.. Pre-mil was the main view of the early church, early church fathers, both pre and post Nicean fathers.. up until 400 to 500 ad (or nearly 5 centuries after His accension) with Augustine was there a shift in this view.

    It is important to also understand that the Apostles themselves believed that Jesus was going to 're'-establish (bring back) the Jewish Kingdom.. look if you will here:
    Up till now Jesus has been revealing the scriptures to them concerning Himself, after His resurrection to His disciples.

    Here we find they are asking a 'specific' question regarding Jesus restoring again 'The Kingdom of Israel' - AT THIS TIME.

    They were expecting Jesus to restore the Kingdom of Israel, thus the usage of 'restore' and 'again' both mean that at one time it was already something established in the past and to be RE-established in the future. It is also noted in their questioning that there IS A TIME in which this WILL be done, thus they wondered if He was going to fulfill it NOW. The Jews looked and were looking for this promise to be fulfilled (toward the Nation), and the Apostles believed it as well, thus their question regarding that Nation and it's Kingdom being established AGAIN, but by Christ it's eternal God-King.

    Jesus does not (as some assume) ignore the question nor did he give them a "non-answer'.

    He specifically answered the question concerning 'the time' of restoration (they asked if it will be now). Notice if you will that Jesus declares in answer to their question The time is not for you to know (it isn't your business) which the Father has put in (under) His own power.

    What did God put in His power?
    Answer: the 'time' of restoration of the Kingdom of Israel.
    The time was not to be their concern but Gods in accordance with His power (to bring it about at His appointed time due to His pleasure - thus 'power'). But they (like we) are to focus on the power which is given to us to fulfill their (and ours) commisioning as do that which is with in our given power, just as God will do all things with in His power, yet both corrispond to His appointed time.

    Our time in relation to the 'power' given us - Now.
    His time in relation to His own Power - when He does it.


    This is specific in relation to God's dealing with the Nation of Israel (Daniel's prophesy - Jacob's troubles) and Israels restoration in Rom 11 Paul speaks to.
     
    #14 Allan, Sep 12, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 12, 2008
  15. tinytim

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    The Bible makes it clear that he is sitting at the right hand of God being our advocate...

    The only place you can glean your interpretation from is John 14...
    Here it is in the KJV..
    John 14:1-6
    (1) Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
    (2) In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
    (3) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.
    (4) And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
    (5) Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
    (6) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    Now, we have to look at a few questions here...
    What is "Father's house?"
    What is "Mansions"
    Where did Christ go to prepare a place for us?
    Why did Christ respond to Thomas the way he did?

    To see my answers go to the new thread I will start titled "My mansion" (As to not hi-jack your thread here:thumbs: )
     
  16. skypair

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    tinytim,

    Have it your way. I wasn't expositing doctrine and the "visual" I used in the OP was simply to point out that "heavenly Jerusalem" is what we would see now but in the tribulation, the "pattern" in heaven reflecting God's dealing on earth will be the OT tabernacle.

    Hope you get lots of good feedback on your new thread.

    skypair
     
  17. tinytim

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    Could the New Jerusalem be Symbolic for the church?
    Or is it an actual place?
     
  18. skypair

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    Actual place.

    skypair
     

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