More on the atonement

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by nwells, Mar 17, 2005.

  1. nwells

    nwells
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2004
    Messages:
    66
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have been thinking a lot about the Christian-culture that I am used to, "God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life" and why it is I am having such a hard time coming to grips with limited atonement (I firmly believe God is active in the salvation of men (being the first cause of it) who apart from God drawing them (as one would draw water from a well), them to Himself would not nor could not come to saving faith; it is a gift, it is by grace).

    I was reading again in the beginning of Acts and I read this:

    "For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself."
    (Act 2:39)

    I think in some ways this sheds some light on what I have been troubled about.

    Dietrich Bonhoeffer wrote in The Cost of Discipleship something like this: "All who believe obey, only those who obey believe"

    If you take one phrase away it leaves the other one untrue.

    Peter is all over the place as far as being inside a nice tight theological box. Rather he openly proclaims multiple truths at the same time - for you, for all, for the elect.

    What does it mean to be scriptural, rather than fudge the edges to make things fit?

    The things of God are truly deep and mysterious; who can know them? The impossiblity of knowing God, is only made possible by God alone.

    -Nathan
     
  2. johnp.

    johnp.
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    0
    1 Cor 2:11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:

    1CO 2:16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord
    that he may instruct him?"

    But we have the mind of Christ.

    The knowable God. The God that reveals Himself to His Children.

    johnp.
     
  3. nwells

    nwells
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2004
    Messages:
    66
    Likes Received:
    0
    God is good to us.

    Communicating that we might know Him - How gracious and majestic is our God!

    -Nathan
     
  4. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    hi Nwells;
    We can all know them through His word and His word is just about every where you go not counting some Islamic countries. Yet the gospel has been to most of those, and is understood by those who hear it. The deep things of God are shown to us after we have the faith that come from the gospel.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  5. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    If you truly believe that we are made in the image of God, then you must know that what God has revealed in his word, must apply to us the way that God made us! NOT the way that our disobedience pulls us!

    By the way, Bonhoeffer's couplet, "All who believe obey, only those who obey believe" is one that I have held near and dear for decades. And of course you will notice what it does not say, "All who are regenerated will obey", but rather "All who believe obey".
     
  6. nwells

    nwells
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2004
    Messages:
    66
    Likes Received:
    0
    Since we are having a discussion about this and not what my question was about I should clarify what I meant when I said, "The impossiblity of knowing God, is only made possible by God alone"

    I meant that without God revealing Himself (in giving us the Word etc) to us and without His giving us the Holy Spirit it would be impossible to know Him - I didn't say it was impossible...just impossible without Him.

    -Nathan
     
  7. OSAS

    OSAS
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2002
    Messages:
    275
    Likes Received:
    0
    That is what I have been saying all along!!!

    John 15:5 "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing."
     
  8. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    Then what you are saying is that NO ONE can read the bible without first being regenerated to be able to do so. Is that what you mean?

    If yes, then you misuse John 15:5 to support your claim. Jesus, speaking to his Disciples, AFTER PETER's DECLARATION OF WHO JESUS IS, tells them that they are already clean by means of the word that He has spoken to them, Vs 3. Then he says in vs 4 "Remain in me"...meaning that they are already in Him. Then in vs 5. he says, to wit, "If you do not remain in me you can do nothing"! Or said another way, If you fall away, (lose your faith), you will be like the branches that are collected and thrown on the fire! And that Folks, refutes the myth of OSAS! God the son says so! Why would Jesus repeatedly say, "remain in me" if it were NOT POSSIBLE to Fall away? Poof! another Myth dealt a fatal blow!

    Now, John 15:5 cannot possibly support the Calvinist myth of Regeneration before belief, because Jesus is speaking to those who have been with him for 3 1/2 years, and this discourse takes place only a very few hours before the Passion! POOF! another myth slithers away!

    In the name of Jesus, Stop MISUSING the scriptures!
     
  9. here now

    here now
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2004
    Messages:
    724
    Likes Received:
    0
    Wes asks:
    Then what you are saying is that NO ONE can read the bible without first being regenerated to be able to do so. Is that what you mean?


    1 Corinthians 2
    13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

    Wes,
    Of course man can READ the Bible, BUT: It's like I tried to tell you, that if it were left to man's brain we would NEVER Spiritually UNDERSTAND the Bible.

    Sincerely,
    Here Now
     
  10. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    1 Corinthians 2 was written before there was "the Holy Bible" So of course Paul would not tell his reader to go read the word of God! Paul did not have "reference material" dealing with the spiritual part of man because it hadn't been written. So he wrote what he knew about.

    This is not brain surgery, don't make it difficult. We have the writings of Paul, or we too would not know of things spiritual. Our brains take in what we hear, what we see, what we read, etc. and ALL of that information is readily available in our brain for our spirit to use. So don't give me this crap about man not being able, it is neither accurate nor palletable.
     
  11. here now

    here now
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2004
    Messages:
    724
    Likes Received:
    0
    Wes says:
    1 Corinthians 2 was written before there was "the Holy Bible" So of course Paul would not tell his reader to go read the word of God! Paul did not have "reference material" dealing with the spiritual part of man because it hadn't been written. So he wrote what he knew about.

    I say:
    Paul did not need "REFERENCE MATERIAL", his words were given to him by GOD through THE HOLY SPIRIT.

    And although the whole Bible was not written at the time many of the books of the Bible were written at the time of Paul's writings.
     
  12. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    But! God did not give that same information to the Romans, the Ephesians, the Philippians, the Galations the Colossians, the Corinthians, etc. UNTIL PAUL went to them and preached. Then Paul followed up his preaching with letters to those groups of believers. Those letters now form the major part of what we call the New testament! So, give us a break Here now, Paul received his "knowledge" from God, agreed, and Paul had previously been a student of the greatest religious leaders of his day! He knew what the writings of Moses said, he new the writings of the prophets said, but it was not until Jesus "recruited him" and set the record straight in Paul's brain that Paul was able to put what he knew on paper, which is how we receive the very same "word of God"
     

Share This Page

Loading...