Mormon and Jehovah's witness

I believe there is scriptural evidence that children are already under the grace of God through Jesus Christ. Many scholars have debated an "age of accountability."

 

John the baptizer did not fully hold to the deity of the Messiah. Neither did the other pre-cross followers of Christ who died before His resurrection. Simply not knowing that key Bible doctrine did not stop them from being saved --

Mormons tend to know almost nothing about the Bible.

JWs tend to be much more informed about the Bible than the average evangelical, protestant or Catholic Christian.

(After all they meet for Bible studies 5 days a week - who wouldn't be much more "informed" after that kind of intense Bible reading?")

JWs do not
1. Pray to the dead
2. "Confect God" in the Eucharist
3. Invent Purgatory
4. Condone as "infallible" the command to "exterminate heretics and Jews" as we see in infallible Canon Law of Lateran IV.
5. Convey magic powers on their priest so they can "mark the soul" in infant baptism or holy orders.
6. Burn Bibles in the dark ages.
7. Pray to Mary as "Mother of God" and "Queen of the Universe".

The RCC does and did all of the above in the dark ages.

But I believe Catholics, Mormons and JWs are all "Christians" and that among them are "the saved" -- though I believe they are all in doctrinal error on one point or another.

I also believe that pre-cross saints like John the baptizer who never figured out that the Messiah is also the 2nd person of the trinity - were saved as well - for "it is appointed unto man ONCE to die and THEN comes the judgment" Hebrews 9.

in Christ,

Bob

 

"But I believe Catholics, Mormons and JWs are all "Christians" and that among them are "the saved" -- though I believe they are all in doctrinal error on one point or another."

I'm afraid I HEARTILY disagree with you. If you believe this, you would also believe that the Judaizers and the Gnostics were Christian in the first century! Paul spent a great deal of time combating those who held "another gospel" and "another Jesus" and he didn't mince any words - they were to, not only avoided, but cursed! Galatians 1:8.

As far as the early church worshipping Jesus, there is historical evidence that they did. Scripture clearly indicates that Jesus is God. Maybe we've given too much credit to the "church fathers" and not paid enough attention to the REAL "Holy Father."

In order to be saved, one must know the REAL Jesus Christ and believe that He came as GOD IN THE FLESH. The one who gives the Holy Spirit - not the "burning in the bosom." 1st John 4:2. Theirs is ANOTHER JESUS and ANOTHER GOSPEL. To Mormons, Jesus is just one of MANY gods and Lucifer’s brother. How do they receive eternal life? Well, for them, it's more like 'how do they become gods themselves'? By having enough "spirit babies" to enter into godhood. So, can you really say that the "Mormon Jesus" is one and the same as the Messiah of Israel? If you depend upon any other Jesus (and the Antichrist will call himself the Messiah) you will be lost. We have not benefitted the church by keeping silent on doctrines of demons! In fact, we have allowed the wolves to enter into the sheep gate!

As far as Catholics? Some will awaken eventually, just as many in cults do, and leave the Jesus of Catholicism who is still nailed to a cross and is more a pagan deity than the true Jesus of the Bible. Many have and many will. The Catholic Catechism calls the RCC god, the same as the Muslims. To them, as demonstrated at Assisi, God is the same by any name. This is a religion of WORKS and faith based on works cannot save. I consider Catholicism to be a completely paganized counterfeit with a Jesus that is celebrated as a cracker. Sorry, this is also another Jesus and another gospel. Satan is clever. He uses the image of the real thing and makes it speak in order to deceive and draw people away from truth.

Jehovah’s witnesses deny the deity of Christ, in other words, deny that God came in the flesh, 1st John 4:2-3. It is a CORPORATION that preys on the gullible and weak in faith. Theirs is also another gospel and another Jesus who they claim is actually a created being. Yes, they know certain passages of their own aberrant bible, The New World Translation, but they refuse to acknowledge any scripture that disagrees with their theology.

There are countless cults and doctrinal heresies, but the main issue is – can those in these cults be saved? Of course they can be, IF they come to the knowledge of the truth! What they have allowed themselves to enter into is falsehood and once entrenched rarely listen to truth and have no love for true Christians or true Christianity! And do you think that many enter the Kingdom of Heaven? God says:

"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.”For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it. "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.” (Matthew 7:13-15 NASB)

So true shepherds know the wiles of the devil and understand the battle for the souls of men. The counterfeits are here and leading people to hell, not heaven.

"Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.”I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.
(Acts 20:28-30 NASB)

So, what is the gospel? The gospel is the TRUTH AND LIFE that God sent His Son into the world and those whom the Father chose to eternal life would recognize and follow Him. They would not follow another, nor believe a lie. It is as simple a message as can be given and even a child can know it.

I know one thing for certain – one must know the TRUE Jesus of the Bible to be saved and I don’t wish for anyone to follow a broad path to hell. We must continue to preach truth and protect the flock.

 

'As far as Catholics? Some will awaken eventually, just as many in cults do, and leave the Jesus of Catholicism who is still nailed to a cross and is more a pagan deity than the true Jesus of the Bible.' What a bunch of HOOEY!!

You are just SO wrong! Catholicism is not a cult. It preaches Christ crucified, died and is coming again. It preaches that through faith in him (Romans 10:9) one can be saved and become a child of God.

I am a Born again Catholic who, has finally but asside my Baptist 'rose colored glasses to actuh nor has it ever believed that Jesus is still nailed to the cross,that He rose for after three days in the grave, aally read what the Catholic Church actually tarught. I found out that Catholic Church has always taught that Christ assended into heaven, sits a the right hand of the Father and will come again to judge both the living and the dead. To claim we that we believe He is a pagan deity is just plain ignorance.

I encourage you to study what the Catholic Church ACTUALLY teaches and not what you have been told it teaches.

I was a Baptist for years who thought JUST like You! Then I actually studied what the Catholic Church really taught. Found that my Baptist ideas about the teachings of the Church were based on lies. The Early Church Christians NEVER held those Baptist inventions! I now have found that the Jesus of the RCC is the SAME JESUS of the New Testament. (Do a little study and see what church was responsible for compiling those 27 books under the inspiration of the H.S.)

My Catholic Church leads an evangelist retreat each weekend in which SCORES of people promise to follow Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior and begin bible studies to assist them in learning the what God's word teaches them about being a disciples of Christ? Are multitudes committing their lives to Jesus each week at you church?? If not, why??

 

By the way, the many, many former Baptst in our Catholic Church say they have only increased in their knowledge of Biblical truth since leaving their 'narrow minded' Baptist churchs. And even though some have continue to fellowship with them by way of Bible studies and joint ourtreach to the poor. I have found none of them have given any thought to re-turning to the Church that had to put a spin to so many beliefs to make them try to comform them with the bible.

 

BTW, for any of you who would like to read of a 'fundamentalist' who finally decided to give Catholicism a fair shake and read something not tainted by 'Baptist' spin. Read the conversion experience from a leader evangelical pastor and how he became convinced that this biased teachings on the Bible had only blinded him to the truth of the Catholic teaching as found in the Bible.

'Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic'

David Currie was raised in a devout Christian family whose father was a fundamentalist preacher and both parents teachers at Moody Bible Institute. Currie's whole upbringing was immersed in the life of fundamentalist Protestantism - theology professors, seminary presidents and founders of evangelical mission agencies were frequent guests at his family dinner table. Currie received a degree from Trinity International University and studied in the Masters of Divinity program.

This book was written as an explanation to his fundamentalist and evangelical friends and family about why he became a Roman Catholic. Currie presents a very lucid, systematic and intelligible account of the reasons for his conversion to the ancient Church that Christ founded. He gives a detailed discussion of the important theological and doctrinal beliefs Catholic and evangelicals hold in common, as well as the key doctrines that separate us, particularly the Eucharist, the Pope, and Mary.

 

Obviously, Lori, I hit your red buttons. My only answer to you will be from the Word of God:

“Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.” (1 Timothy 4:1-3 KJV)

“And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.” (Matthew 23:9 KJV)

I have no interest in reading the propaganda. I have read the Catholic Catechism and many of the Pope's encyclicals. Enough already!

I feel for you. We are definitely not "brethren."

"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities." (Revelation 18:4-5 KJV)

Remember the Inquisition.

 

Lori, no one is unaware that some evangelicals become Catholic, but I know quite a few evangelicals who were once Roman Catholic. A lot of people at my church are in this category.

And I and others have studied what the Catholic church teaches; it has not caused me to want to be Catholic.

 

What?! Where is the evidence for this statement?

No, they are not at all informed. They are taught to (mis)use certain passages. I witnessed to JWs coming to my door for 13 yrs. They did not know the Bible well at all because their 'real' Bible is the New World translation, a faulty translation. They were unable to refute me when I showed them truth from scripture, which they seemed unaware of.

True, but they deny the deity of Christ, a fatal error that takes one to hell.

What?! I am so surprised you write this re Mormons and JWs. I'm almost speechless. Mormons and JWs have a different Jesus and different God. The Mormon God does not even resemble the God of the Bible, plus they believe in more than one God!!

The Mormon Jesus is a spirit child of the God of this world (just like you and me), and the JW Jesus is a "lower" divine being.

These are heresies of the worst sort.

 

Maybe studying Catholc teaching from 'Baptist colored glasses'. It is amazing to me how you try to spin the clear meaning of scripture and the Early Church Fathers (who concur with the Bible) on baptist.

Yeah, and what I found in my Baptist church what that the majority of the 'converts, had very little if any understanding of what the Catholic Church really taught.

On the other hand, the majority of former Baptist who have come to know the truth of the Catholic Church have come through by much study and prayer. There are many, many former Baptist pastors who have finally took the blinders of there 'Baptist Only' teachings and studied the Early Church only to find that it was OVERWHELMINGLY Catholic in it's believe and practice. Your so called 'Baptist History' just doesn't have a history that compares to the Catholic Church in either doctrine or practice. It just doesn't exist. It was invented. Read the Early Church Fathers starting from Ignatius, Polycarp, ect. and you find the Eurcharist and Baptisms as we practice in the Holy Catholic Church was in widespread practice from the earliest of the Christian Church. It is is absurd to reinvent Church history to try to support your contrived doctrines.

 

Have you read: 'The Usual Suspects' by Karl keating'

If so, he answers you accusations and makes them 'False Accusations relying on the true teachings of the Holy Church.

I'm talkling about the Holy Catholic Church and not the J.W. and Morman cults.

 

I decided to read apologist from both a Catholic and Baptist viewpoint. What I found was that the Baptist viewpoints were based on faulty and sometimes contrived accounts of history. 'Trail of Blood' for one!

Many, many Catholics are what you Baptist would define as 'Born Again'. They do not rely on a 'works based' salvation. Their faith is in believing that Jesus Christ died on the cross as an atonement for their sins, believe he rose from the dead, ascended into heaven, pleads for them at the right hand of the Father and will stand before God on their behalf at the judgment.

They are not saved in spite of the teaching of the Catholic Church, but because the Catholic Church presents the True Gospel of Christ that has the power through the Holy Spirit to bring about our New Creation in Christ.

Yes, it is the same Jesus you love and and worship and depend on His cleansing blood (as we Catholics do) that will bring us to eternal life in Him.

Ye must be born again! Baptist, Catholics, Orthodox, Methodist, etc.

Your Church membership in these denominations is not going to be the ticket that sees you spending eternity with the Lord! Your relationship with Jesus Christ will. Period!

 

Our contrived doctrines? Lori, first of all, I want to apologize for my "remember the Inquisition" remark. It was unnecessary in light of the post. Sorry for that. This is a sore spot for me as my entire family on my mother's side was Catholic - my mother was truly saved and renounced the teachings of the RCC a few years before she died.

Second, you come from a position that I don't accept and of course you have been taught that we are incorrect and that the RCC is the ONLY true church. It couldn't stand unless you believed that.

It is the standard spiel of every Catholic that no Protestant knows what the Catholic Church teaches. Since so many have come out of her, that statement is ludicrous! Remember, there are many priests who have left the "mother's arms" of death and begun anew in the arms of the true Jesus.

As for whether or not the Jesus you worship is the true Messiah, I can only say that my Lord is not an infant, not still hanging on the cross (HE IS RISEN!) and is certainly NOT a cracker! (Even if you do call it a eucharist). I am not your "separated brethren" because as I have chosen to call a cracker a cracker, I have now been anathematized according to the Catholic Catechism.

You are paying too much attention to the "church fathers" when in truth, heresy began to come into the church soon after the first century. They disagreed with one another and no, they didn't get it all right! The Apostle Paul warned this would happen.

If you pay less attention to the writings of men and more to scripture, I think God will show you the truth.

 

The thread's topic Is "Mormon and Jehovah's Witness."

I see no reason that the subject of this thread should have become Catholicism.

 

Yeah, I always find this to be a rather pathetic defense mechanism on the part of Catholics. Many of us were taught by the very same Catholic Church they were, but then they believe that, all of a sudden, the moment we become Christians, we automatically forget everything we were ever taught in the Catholic Church.

The hypocritical part is that then, they turn around and claim to be experts on what Christianity teaches, even though many of them will admit to never even being a Christian.

Yep. There's a man in one of our sister churches who was a Jesuit priest for thirty years and then became a Christian and left the Catholic Church.

What's more, many of you know I'm going back to school now and one of my professors was a Catholic monk for many years. He's not a Christian, unfortunately, but he knows that I'm a Christian and in ministry and we've talked about Catholic doctrine many times. Even he admits that the things I've said about Catholicism are true.

Just to clarify, Jesus technically doesn't turn into the cracker until the priest says the magic words.

Right. Lori claims that the Catholic Church teaches the "true Gospel of Jesus Christ" and yet, when we preach the "true Gospel of Jesus Christ", the Catholic Church says that we're to be considered anathema.

That's interesting because when I cited Karl Keating, you said he didn't know what he was talking about.

But then, when you believe he supports you, all of a sudden, he's a genius.

And did you know that each one of the Baptist Distinctives was practiced by the "early church"?

Actually, it does. What you forget is that we were all a part of the same church. "Catholic" history up to the Reformation is also our history. The "Early Church Fathers" are our "Early Church Fathers", as well.

The Early Church Fathers are our Early Church Fathers, too. And while we find their writings instructive and inspiring, they're not authoritative or inspired.

The ECFs say a lot of wonderful things that are vital to the church today. However, we don't get our doctrine from them. We get it from the word of God.

...says the person who denies that Protestant and Catholic both shared the same church until the Reformation.

And I talk to Catholics every day who tell me that they never saw the inside of a Bible until they got saved and left the Catholic church?

Seriously, in our church, you have to take a class for new believers called "Fundamentals of the Faith" that just so happens to be taught by yours truly. I can't tell you how many new Christians we get in this class who were Catholics and don't have a clue what Christianity teaches.

Typically, the only exposure a Catholic has to scripture is what's printed for him (usually out of context) in the missal.

 

The RCC did all of the above in the dark ages and in many cases still does affirm those actions as "infallible".

There are some doctrinal points in which I would differ even with Baptists -- my point is two fold.

1. I do not call any of them "not-saved" simply for the group they belong to -- even though I find doctrinal differences with them.

2. If the JWs and the RCC had both been introduced to the western world just yesterday -- the one having that list of errors I included above - would be far more shocking between the two.

in Christ,

Bob

 

I don't study Catholicism from "Baptist colored glasses" but from a biblical viewpoint. I'm not very influenced by denominations since I came very late to faith in Christ.

Where do I try to "spin" anything?

Not true in my church among those I know.

I don't really care about Baptist history. You talk like I"m some kind of super Baptist or something. Only one of my supporting churches is Baptist.

I've read some of the early Church fathers. They have some great insights but their words are not scripture nor are they authoritative.

Where do I do that? Contrived? Every belief I have is from the bible, from my own study. You are quite harsh today, Lori. I think this harshness maybe reveals an anger against Baptists that caused you to turn to Catholicism?

 

I wrote the above to you in response to your remarks on the JWs and Mormons. I must disagree that they are in any category with Catholics. The SDA hatred of catholics is showing here.

JWs and Mormons are by their beliefs totally heretical in that they do not worship or believe in the biblical God or Jesus. They cannot be Christians in any sense of the word.

 

What I find interesting is that Catholic apologists do an exceptional (using scripture) to to answer the 'typical' accusations made by Catholic bashers. I have read few that have ever made an occasional quoted when using these excellent Catholic apologist. The fact remains. Our Catholic Churches RCIA classes are filled with Baptist, Mennonite, Assembly of God, and many other life long anti-catholics that have admitted that they have been misled by their churches as to what Catholicism teaches. Many of these people now team up to go door to door to invite unsaved people in our area to learn the truth about the Catholic Faith. We recently had a Jehovah Witness attend our faith retreat.

What I'm asking is that you might take those narrow blinders off your eyes and read what others who have been in ministry in the Baptist church for years and have found that the real truth is found in the teachings and of the Bible as passed on by Bible believing Catholics down from the earliest times of the Apostolic Church (The Catholic Church of course!)

TRY THE BOOKS OF SCOTT HAHN!! ONCE ONE OF YOU AND THEN REALIZED THE HOLY SPIRIT TOOK THE BLINDERS OFF!

 

I don't think you have, Marcia. You've got to remember that she's so determined to defend what she believes Catholicism to be, that she's actually argued against Catholic documents.

Lori is a very confused young girl.