Moses and Elijah, Assumed

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by GraceSaves, Feb 13, 2003.

  1. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2002
    Messages:
    2,631
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hey all,

    This is mainly for non-Catholics to answer.

    At Jesus' transfiguration on the mount, Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus. Now, we know that Elijah was taken up into Heaven, and there are apocryphal stories of Moses being taken up into heaven, as well as a few cryptic spots in Scripture. It doesn't say he was specifically, but I've seen some on here guess that maybe he was.

    My question is: do you think this is why Jesus could speak to them, and why He and the disciples Peter, James, and John could see them? Because they were already taken body and soul?

    God bless,

    Grant
     
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Yes -

    Jesus was not "conjuring the dead". This is not a seance'. It is not a case of praying to the dead or conjuring up the dead spirits.

    In the NT - in the book of Jude we see reference made to the book "The Assumption of Moses".

    In 2Kings 2 we see the fact that Elijah was taken "up to heaven" by God - while still alive.

    These were LIVING saints - they were not "Those who have fallen asleep" that we see referenced in 1Thess 4.

    No way to use Matt 17 as an "excuse" for praying to the dead.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2002
    Messages:
    2,631
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thank you for the response, Bob.

    Now, how about Marian appiritions? Makes sense, since she was bodily assumed into Heaven. [​IMG]

    God bless,

    Grant
     
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    We know that Elijah was bodily taken to heaven while living - because scripture tells us so in 2Kings 2.

    We know that Moses was taken to heaven after dying - by being resurrected and bodily assumed into heaven - because Jude quotes "The Assumption of Moses" as authorotative.

    We "might expect" the almost-all-important personage of Mary to get "honorable mention" in that group as she does so incessantly today by our Catholic bretheren - and yet in scripture - not a peep regarding Mary being raised.

    IN FACT - the RCC itself did not "think to imagine" that event until CENTURIES after Mary's death.

    And "in fact" the ONLY argument in favor of Mary's "assumption into heaven" that the RCC makes is NOT based on any scriptural reference - BUT rather to a non-scriptural error - the error that "Mary was sinless like Christ and so deserved to be bodily raised and sent to heaven like Christ".

    Yet scripture flatly contradicts the argument that ANY of the children of Adam were "sinless like Christ". God ALONE holds that title.

    You see - IF the RCC had claimed INSTEAD "Hey Mary was assumed into heaven because we found all these first century eye-witness accounts testifying to that fact" - we could certainly have room to "believe it".

    But that is NOT the claim.

    You must FIRST believe the "error" that Mary was "sinnless like Christ" to GET TO the RCC reasoning for the non-fact that she was "assumed into Heaven".

    The premise is flawed - a non-Catholic could therefore never swallow it's conclusion.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. neal4christ

    neal4christ
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2002
    Messages:
    1,815
    Likes Received:
    0
    What about Moses and Elijah and Enoch appiritions? Why do they not happen now?

    Neal
     
  6. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/3mom.jpg>

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2003
    Messages:
    1,594
    Likes Received:
    0
    What about Moses and Elijah and Enoch appiritions? Why do they not happen now?

    Neal
    </font>[/QUOTE][​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  7. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/3mom.jpg>

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2003
    Messages:
    1,594
    Likes Received:
    0
    GraceSaves,

    That was a cheap shot throwing out a loaded question like that.

    :rolleyes:
     
  8. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/curtis.gif>

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2001
    Messages:
    20,240
    Likes Received:
    2
    Now who are the dead prophets in Revelation ? Are they Elijah and Moses ? Seriously, I do have a point, but need an answer first. And yes, it is a loaded question.
     
  9. blackbird

    blackbird
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2002
    Messages:
    11,898
    Likes Received:
    2
    Brother Curtis,
    Will you take a guess from a SBC'er?? The Revelation prophets are unnamed--I think??--so theologians take educated guesses--I guess Enoch and Elijah--basically because they are the only two fellas in the word that never died--they were "caught up" so to speak.

    Mary is dead and her bones are somewhere in Middle Eastern soil--probably somewhere there under the rocks in Israel "awaiting resurrection day!"

    Your friend,
    Blackbird
     
  10. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2002
    Messages:
    2,631
    Likes Received:
    0
  11. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2002
    Messages:
    2,631
    Likes Received:
    0
    The question was not loaded. After getting an answer that I would have expected, I asked another question, in which you guys have done a nice job of answering against my own opinion. You haven't seen me complaining, have you?

    God bless,

    Grant
     
  12. donnA

    donnA
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2000
    Messages:
    23,354
    Likes Received:
    0
    I prefer to go to the word of God when asking biblical questions. SO lets see what God has said.

    Deuteronomy 34:1Then Moses went up from the plains of Moab to Mount Nebo, to the top of Pisgah, which is across from Jericho. And the LORD showed him all the land of Gilead as far as Dan, 2all Naphtali and the land of Ephraim and Manasseh, all the land of Judah as far as the £Western Sea, 3the South, and the plain of the Valley of Jericho, the city of palm trees, as far as Zoar. 4Then the LORD said to him, “This is the land of which I swore to give Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, saying, ‘I will give it to your descendants.’ I have caused you to see it with your eyes, but you shall not cross over there.”
    5So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. 6And He buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth Peor; but no one knows his grave to this day. 7Moses was one hundred and twenty years old when he died. His eyes were not dim nor his natural vigor diminished.


    Unless God is a liar, then Moses died and was burried.
     
  13. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber
    Expand Collapse
    <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2001
    Messages:
    3,079
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi Kate,

    You wrote, "Unless God is a liar, then Moses died and was burried."

    So? Jesus died and was buried as well. And he subsequently rose from the dead in the resurrection.

    For someone to be assumed into heaven, they must not "not die". In fact, most Catholics believe that Mary died and was buried before she was assumed into heaven (we are free to believe that she either died or didn't die; the formula of the dogma is, "at the end of her earthly life").

    If Moses was assumed into heaven, it most certainly occurred after his death and burial: events which do not prevent his further assumption.

    God bless,

    Carson
     
  14. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/curtis.gif>

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2001
    Messages:
    20,240
    Likes Received:
    2
    Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:


    Hi Blackbird. I do agree with you. Elijah, and Enoch, are the two Biblically recorded folks who did not die. Moses’ death is recorded, I believe he is buried somewhere.

    Anyhoodilly, every time I post the above verse, I get someone telling me, “what about Elijah, and Enoch. They didn’t die.” But, if you think like we do, they will die, in Revelation’s prophecy, therefore fufilling the above verse.

    No mention of Mary's death in Revelation, so therefore, I believe, while comparing scripture against scripture, she must allready be dead.
     
  15. Singer

    Singer
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    Messages:
    1,343
    Likes Received:
    0
    Quote from Carson:

    "So? Jesus died and was buried as well. And he subsequently rose from the dead in the
    resurrection."
    ______________________________________________________

    Did you really mean Christ rose IN the resurrection ?

    John 11:25 says:
    " Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life:
    he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live"

    How does this affect things? He said he IS the resurrection.
     
  16. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2002
    Messages:
    2,631
    Likes Received:
    0
    Singer,

    You are mixing up two messages. Christ Himself actually resurrected. So IN His resurrection, He rose from the dead.

    The verse you quote is speaking about us in relation to Christ. Christ IS the resurrection in that in, through, with, and by Him, we will be resurrected. He IS the cause of our physical resurrection at the end of time. Just like Jesus HAS life, and He also IS life. Two different meanings, but both are still valid to say.

    God bless,

    Grant
     
  17. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2002
    Messages:
    2,631
    Likes Received:
    0
    What about Moses and Elijah and Enoch appiritions? Why do they not happen now?

    Neal
    </font>[/QUOTE]Good question, Neal. One that I certainly can't answer.

    I suppose that to my defense, what I can say is that they DID happen. Moses and Elijah DID appear to Jesus Christ and three of His disciples. And, I'm sure, there was a very significant purpose to it. I don't think they just appeared "because they wanted to" or some such thing. Perhaps they have no purpose to do such again, which is why they do not. Perhaps Mary DOES have a purpose, which is why she does. We know that THEY did appear, and we believe that, at least for Elijah, that HE WAS assumed. And we can reasonably conclude that Moses MIGHT HAVE been assumed. Two assumptions, two appearances.

    I'm simply saying that, as far as Catholic reasoning goes, we believe that she was assumed, and people claim that she appears.

    I'm not trying to prove anything here; I simply think it is a neat connection.

    God bless,

    Grant
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Curtis
    Now who are the dead prophets in Revelation ? Are they Elijah and Moses ? Seriously, I do have a point, but need an answer first. And yes, it is a loaded question.


    Rev 11 says nothing about "dead prophets" doing anything while dead. Neither do we see that the "witnesses" in Rev 11 are Moses and Elijah.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    You are wrong.

    Mary's Tomb IS a topic well known in the RCC and almost all accept that she died. Being Bodily ASSUMED INTO HEAVEN after being raised to life - is an argument made that LIKE CHRIST she was taken bodily into heaven, LiKE CHRIST she was not allowed to undergo decay.

    There is no Bible statement that to be assumed into heaven - you must not have been raised from the dead or have died.

    Therefore imputing a late Catholic notion to the Jewish text "The Assumption of Moses" such that "Moses could not have died" is just silly.

    There is no need to inject that meaning into it AND even the arguments for Mary's assumption into heaven do not require it.

    Carson - writes -
    If Moses was assumed into heaven, it most certainly occurred after his death and burial: events which do not prevent his further assumption.


    That is true but here you seem to contradict your own statement above - what am I missing?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2002
    Messages:
    2,631
    Likes Received:
    0
    Bob,

    I don't see a contradiction. He said that "not dying" is not necessary for being assumed. He did not say one must "not die," period.

    God bless,

    Grant
     

Share This Page

Loading...