Mt. 20:28 and different Gospels

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by UZThD, Aug 16, 2005.

  1. UZThD

    UZThD
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2004
    Messages:
    1,238
    Likes Received:
    0
    If Jesus ,in His first coming , came to "GIVE HIS LIFE A RANSOM," then how can it be thought that He preached a different Gospel than Paul whose Gospel plainly is, "HE GAVE HIMSELF FOR OUR SINS"? (Gal 1:4)
     
  2. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    You can't divide the two Gospel messages into that of Jesus and that of Paul. That is a false dichotomy and a tragic false doctrine.
     
  3. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    There is one Gospel, there has always been only one Gospel, there will always be only one Gospel, the Gospel of Jesus Christ which the Apostle Paul tells us is the power of God unto salvation.
     
  4. The Harvest

    The Harvest
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2003
    Messages:
    468
    Likes Received:
    0
    There is more than one gospel. People get confused because when we say gospel these days we are referring to the 1 Cor 15 definition which is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. But there is more than one gospel in the Bible. The gospel with which we are saved today is the one I just described which was preached after Christ's resurrection by the apostles.

    The gospel that Jesus preached was the gospel of the kingdom (Matt 4:23, 9:35, 24:14 and many more). This was the gospel for the Jews who were still under the Mosaic Law. Christ had to fulfill the prophecies of His first coming. The message He preached was the gospel of the kingdom. If the Jews had accepted this gospel and not rejected Christ as their King the Kingdom would have been placed into effect at that time with Jesus ruling the world from Jerusalem. Of course this didn't happen and couldn't happen anyway because it had been prophesied otherwise. The Jews rejected their Messiah and the gospel he preached and the rest is history (and history that is very near and dear to all of us I might add).

    Realize that it is not a heresy to believe that there have been different gospels preached. It becomes a heresy when you try to mesh the gospels all into one and change the way salvation works. If you try to say that the current gospel of the death, burial and resurrection which provides salvation by grace through faith (Eph 2:8-9) with the gospel of the kingdom Jesus preached precrucifixion, you have a problem.

    I hope everyone understands my use of the word heresy. It is not directed at anyone in this thread.
     
  5. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2002
    Messages:
    2,662
    Likes Received:
    0
    Christ preached the gospel of the kingdom to Jews of Israel. This gospel of the kingdom is not just for the Jews only, also, include us too.

    Remember, Paul told us, the gospel was to the Jews then Gentiles of Romans 1:16. This does not mean there is two gospels.

    Natural Israel rejected Jesus Christ as Messiah, so that why God cut them off from Olive tree, God added believing Gentiles unto the Olive Tree join with believing Jews. So, therefore both are spiritual Israel, not "Church replaced Israel" as so called, 'replacement theology'.

    Throughout in the Bible teaches us, there is the only ONE gospel, that Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins, He buried for us, He rose from the death for us according to 1 Cor. 15:1-4.

    Jesus Christ never preaching two gospels to Jews, he preached the same gospel just as Paul and we are preaching the same gospel today.

    kingdom of heaven/kingdom of God both are same meaning. Bible commanded us that we go and preaching the gospel of the kingdom to the world, just same as what Christ preached to the Jews. There is no difference between Christ's preaching and our preaching both are same and the only ONE gospel. Very simple and plain.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  6. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    Harvest

    You are mistaken. There is one Gospel, there has always been only one Gospel, there will always be only one Gospel, the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That Gospel is expressed very clearly in John 3:16

    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Jesus Christ did not say that whoever believes shall inherit an earthly kingdom for a time but would have everlasting life.

    The Apostle Paul speaks of the Gospel of Jesus Christ as follows [Romans 1:16]

    For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

    Mark in his account of the ministry of Jesus Christ begins with the statement: The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
     
  7. The Harvest

    The Harvest
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2003
    Messages:
    468
    Likes Received:
    0
    Jesus never once told anyone to call upon his name like Paul did in Rom 10:13. Jesus didn't tell anyone to trust in His death, burial and resurrection for forgiveness of sins. But Paul did. Paul never said repent ye for the kingdom of heaven is at hand like Jesus did (Matt 3:2). Their messages were different.

    Ultimately the message was the same. That Jesus Christ is the only way to Heaven is essentially what they both preached. But Jesus could not preach His own death, burial and resurrection because it had not happened yet while he was teaching the Jewish people. After Jesus arose, He only appeared to those who were already His followers. Paul and the others preached that Jesus is the only way to Heaven. But they were able to tell the gospel of the death, burial and resurrection.
     
  8. UZThD

    UZThD
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2004
    Messages:
    1,238
    Likes Received:
    0
    Jesus could not preach His own death?

    I ask again, IF Christ preached a diff Gospel of setting up the Jewish Kingdom then what do Mt 20:28 and Jo 3:16 mean?
     
  9. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2002
    Messages:
    2,662
    Likes Received:
    0
    GOOD GRIEF! :( (Charles Brown speaks!)

    That is type of dispensationalism teaching. I strong disagree with it.

    Romans 4:3-5; Gal. 3:6-7 telling us, it is written, Abraham believed the same faith as we believe by the faith. Abraham believed in Jesus Christ by the faith, as we believed in Jesus Christ. Abraham and the Old Testament saints are on the same boat which we are on it right now. Same boat is sailing toward heaven for eternal life by through our faith in Jesus Christ only.

    That is the same gospel, as what Christ preached to them, Paul preached to them, and today we are continuing preaching to them.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  10. UZThD

    UZThD
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2004
    Messages:
    1,238
    Likes Received:
    0
    Abraham believed in Jesus Christ? Where does it say that?
     
  11. The Harvest

    The Harvest
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2003
    Messages:
    468
    Likes Received:
    0
    Mt 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

    He is illustrating the point He was making in the previous verses. And it was also a prophecy. He was fortelling His own death.

    Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
    15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Verse 14 is a prophecy and 15 and 16 are what will come of the prophecy. Notice that Nicodemus didn't understand what He was saying.
     
  12. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    You won't find these exact words in the Bible, but Abraham DID believe the work of Jesus Christ, maybe not by name, in the future would pay the penalty for his sin.
     
  13. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2002
    Messages:
    2,662
    Likes Received:
    0
    UZTHD,

    That is your own imagination question. Jesus Christ disagrees with you.

    Christ preached, and he commanded to them, 'Repent! For the kingdom of God draw near.' That means, Jews were commanded to repent of their sins, the kingdom of God/heaven is about to come or arrived.

    During Christ's time, Jews were expecting that their Messiah would come and to thrown Roman Empire away, and to set kingdom in Jerusalem.

    Christ told them, the kingdom of God/heaven is not an observing(sight or visibly), but it is from above. He was speaking of spiritually.

    Christ already brought kingdom through Calvary that He already give His power to the Church to preaching the kingdom of God/heaven to the world.

    Bible does not teaching that the kingdom was postsoned(cancelled or delay) as Jews reject Christ. According as what premill teaches.

    The kingdom of God/heaven ALREADY brought by Jesus Christ, that he preached it to the Jews, as we are preaching the gospel of the kingdom since Early Church to today.

    There is the only ONE same old gospel as what Chriat already preached to them.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  14. The Harvest

    The Harvest
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2003
    Messages:
    468
    Likes Received:
    0
    Deafpost,

    You couldn't be farther from the truth. Rom 4 says Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. It says nothing about Abraham even knowing of Jesus Christ, much less the death, burial and resurrection.
     
  15. UZThD

    UZThD
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2004
    Messages:
    1,238
    Likes Received:
    0
    Mt 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

    He is illustrating the point He was making in the previous verses. And it was also a prophecy. He was fortelling His own death.

    Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
    15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Verse 14 is a prophecy and 15 and 16 are what will come of the prophecy. Notice that Nicodemus didn't understand what He was saying.
    </font>[/QUOTE]---

    Doesn't He say HE CAME to give His life a ransom? Isn't that different than coming to set up the Jewish Kingdom?

    Isn't Jo 3:16 combined with Mt 20:28 the SAME message Paul preached?
     
  16. UZThD

    UZThD
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2004
    Messages:
    1,238
    Likes Received:
    0
     
  17. The Harvest

    The Harvest
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2003
    Messages:
    468
    Likes Received:
    0
    i don't follow you here.

    Part of it. But Christ couldn't preach it in the fullness that Paul could because it hadn't happened yet.
     
  18. UZThD

    UZThD
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2004
    Messages:
    1,238
    Likes Received:
    0
    You won't find these exact words in the Bible, but Abraham DID believe the work of Jesus Christ, maybe not by name, in the future would pay the penalty for his sin. </font>[/QUOTE]===


    OK. I can admit if I'm wrong.

    Just show me where it says "Abraham did believe in the work of JC."
     
  19. UZThD

    UZThD
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2004
    Messages:
    1,238
    Likes Received:
    0
    i don't follow you here.

    ===

    My thought is that IF Christ came to die in His first coming and says that, then He IS preaching the Gospel of Paul.

    ===

    Part of it. But Christ couldn't preach it in the fullness that Paul could because it hadn't happened yet.
    </font>[/QUOTE]===

    Why cannot something be preached unless it first happens?

    Christ taught His death and resurrection and required faith in these . Just like Paul in Gal 1 did.

    Would you name ONE thing which Paul defines as his Gospel that Christ did not teach.
     
  20. The Harvest

    The Harvest
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2003
    Messages:
    468
    Likes Received:
    0
    it's not really preaching but prophesying until it happens.

    He did teach His death and resurrection. But nobody understood what He was talking about until after it happened. He also didn't require them to understand for salvation. Remember that He opened their understanding after he arose.
     

Share This Page

Loading...