murder and civil disobedience

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by abcgrad94, Jan 29, 2009.

  1. abcgrad94

    abcgrad94
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    Immagine a "medical facility" where overwhelmed parents can take their children to be legally tortured and murdered. It doesn't matter the age of the child, whether a few days or several years. The US Supreme Court has declared it a legal right of the parent to leave their child, and in some cases lets taxpayer dollars pay for the elimination and disposal of the unwanted children.

    Would we not, as Christians, do whatever it took to stop the practice, even if it meant severe consequences? Would we stand idly by and shrug and do nothing because the law of the land protected the practice? I think not.

    So, why are we allowing unborn children to be murdered and tortured and even voting in politicians who condone and actually support the act with our own tax dollars? What's the difference?
     
  2. Jim1999

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    abortion is legal by law!

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  3. ccrobinson

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    The difference is that those who condone abortion don't believe that life begins at conception. Whether or not you see abortion as murder depends on whether or not you believe life begins at conception.
     
  4. swaimj

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    Interfering in such matters is not the primary duty of the Christian as an individual or the church in general. Great evils have been perpetrated in many societies in the last 2,000 years. The church has done little to stop most of them and has often been powerless to stop them as well. The church is most effective when we preach the gospel of personal salvation to men and then disciple those who believe. Success in this endeavor has had a cumulative effect on many societies at different times and has made them better places to live. However, a better society is a side-effect of the gospel, not the goal of the gospel.
     
  5. Pastor David

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    Hi abcgrad94,

    Those are some very good questions that need more attention then I'm able to give them here. But allow me to say, Christians certainly shouldn't condone everything their government allows. Simply because abortion is legal in some places today (remember Roe V. Wade was a court ruling, not a law), does not mean Christians have to embrace it. In fact, we should openly condone it.

    But the issue of civil disobedience is another matter. This would only come into play if you, as a Christian, were being compelled to due something you know to be contrary to God's will. For example, if the government was trying to make you perfrom an abortion, then you'd have the responsibility to disobey the civil authorities. But simply b/c abortions are done in some places and not punished by the civil magistrate is not necessarily a legitimate reason for Christians to disobey.

    Blessings,
    Pastor David
     
  6. Jim1999

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    I don't agree with abortion. It is, however, an allowable law, hence it is not murder. The law defines what is murder, not us.

    My argument is that we are doing all the screaming and too few are actually doing anything to solve the abortion problem.

    I don't like guns or speeding, but I don't spend my life screaming at hunters and speeders.

    Same with those facing abortion. If I can I make myself available for counsel. At least it is one step, and it sure beats hollering at someone who thinks they are doing either right or the expediant thing in their circumstance.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  7. Pastor David

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    Jim,

    Simply b/c something is lawful, doesn't make it unsinful.
    God's Word defines what murder is, not our laws.

    Blessings,
    Pastor David
     
    #7 Pastor David, Jan 29, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 29, 2009
  8. Salamander

    Salamander
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    I'm not!

    I cannot legislate every action by another nor can I stop them from doing something unless it is within my power.

    I vote against any politician that advocates choice when it comes to abortion, but there is a fine line between risks and wishes.
     
  9. tinytim

    tinytim
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    Sorry Jim, taking an innocent life is murder even if the Government is so corrupt it doesn't call it murder...

    We have a higher law.

    Life begins at conception... why do you liberals not see this?

    Life begins at conception...

    Maybe if I repeat it louder the Holy Spirit will convict you all and make you see that

    LIFE BEGINS AT CONCEPTION

    And taking that life is murder... and yes, we need to do everything in our power to stop this abomination!
     
  10. tinytim

    tinytim
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    Good explanation.

    But what is happening is Satan has infested the church with his hordes so that now, people who call themselves Christian openly endorse this murder...

    Judgment must first begin in the house of God.
    Until churches disciplines their pro-abortion members, this country will never be turned around.

    When it gets to the point that "Christians" will fight for the right for a woman to murder their unborn baby, then God is not happy.

    And personally, In my opinion, anyone openly advocating abortion cannot be saved. A murderer does not go to Heaven that hasn't repented.. nor those that have pleasure in sin..

    Notice what God says, (NOT MY MESSAGE>>> but God's word.. if you have a problem with it, take it up with your creator)



    When people approve of women having abortion they should expect the wrath of God.
     
    #10 tinytim, Jan 29, 2009
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  11. Salamander

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    What if the conceived is proven to be killing the mother? Would that baby then be the murderer? What if, 100% sure, the baby is going to kill the mother, and those who know it do nothing to stop it? Isn't that an accessory to murder?
     
  12. tinytim

    tinytim
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    And this is a strawman developed by abortionists...

    Look at the statistics according to Planned Parenthood....(YES Planned Parenthood)

    * 1% are victims of incest or rape
    * 1% had fetal abnormalities
    * 4% had a doctor who said their health would worsen if they continued the pregnancy
    * 50% said they didn't want to be a single parent or they had problems in current relationships
    * 66% stated they could not afford a child
    *75% said the child would interfere with their lives.



    http://eng.christianitydaily.com/advice/advice2.htm



    Point is.. WE are not to play God and decide who lives and who doesn't.. God has not given us the right to choose one life over another...
     
    #12 tinytim, Jan 29, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 29, 2009
  13. tinytim

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  14. Jim1999

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    Call it strawman if you wish, but I have witnessed where a mother's life was in peril........a mother who was against abortion.

    I don't put any stock in so called statistics. They prove nothing!

    Whether we like the law or not it doesn't matter. It is the law. If you don't like abortion do something about it, and not just blast your mouth off at the converted and the innocents and the people who don't share your religion.

    What do I do with all unbelievers? Perhaps choke them into submission. No, I witness to them as opportunity arises. I preach the gospel. I try to live the life.

    I know that some are not against killing. When the topic of a dog doing an injury, the solution was a .22 shell to the head. That is killing a living being and it meant nothing. God gave us dominion (responsibility) over the animals and that does not mean killing them because they do what comes natural without proper training.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  15. THEOLDMAN

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    Your post reaks......of wisdom !
     
  16. tinytim

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    You have a good point. Jim...

    Those of us against abortion should not only try to overturn the laws (or in the USA's case, the Supreme Court's ruling) that give the option of murdering the unborn in our democratic societys; but we should be actively engaged in other ways to reduce abortion..

    Like getting involved in a pregnancy crisis center...
    Petition, and contact our representatives...
    Quit treating Pregnant teens like outcasts in our churches...
    Become an adoption advocate..
    Actually adopt if we can... We have thought about it...


    But at the same time protest and let our voices be known that Abortion is murder...

    And I would advocate church discipline for pro-abortion people.

    WHAT?

    If someone, a member of your church said it is OK to kill a 6 week old infant.. would you discipline them?
    IF not, something is wrong with your church...

    So what would be the difference if a person told a pregnant lady it was OK to have an abortion.... "afterall,, it is the law of the land."

    Until churches get serious about preserving life, this blight will be on our land.

    It is time for the church to stand up and proclaim to our leaders... ENOUGH WITH THE UNGODLY ATTITUDE.
     
  17. tinytim

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    So TheOldman, do you feel abortion should be an option?
     
  18. Tom Bryant

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    I am wondering, what would you suggest we do in terms of civil disobedience? I agree abortion is murder and that we ought to expect God's judgment on us as a nation, but is there a plan of action that you suggest?
     
  19. tinytim

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    **** Warning: comedic interruption to a rather serious thread ****

    I bet a rolling pin is involved!!!

    **** Interruption over****
     
  20. Salamander

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    Not ever or ever will be an abortionist, but you didn't answer the questions either.
     

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