Musical Instruments in Christ's church [2]

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by defenderofthefaith, Dec 31, 2008.

  1. defenderofthefaith

    defenderofthefaith
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  2. Salty

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    Three simple questions:

    1. Is it a sin when a person plays a musical instrument during a worship service?

    2. If it (#1) is a sin, could a person actually end up in Hell

    3. Is it acceptable for, say a Gospel group to come and preform a concert on a Friday night using instruments.

    NOTE: Q 1 & 2 are simple yes or no questions and possibly Q 3. I am asking these questions in a serious manner - I am not being facetious at all

    Please no long dissertations. - Please keep the answer to each question to 20 words or less.

    Salty

    Whether you answer my questions or not, this is my last post on this subject

    PPS - I added this after I read post 3 & 4. The 3 questions I asked were specifically for Defender of the Faith
     
    #2 Salty, Dec 31, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 31, 2008
  3. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ
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    As has been clearly shown, from the scriptures, musical instruments have Gods approval for worship of him during our christian gatherings.

    :wavey:


    :godisgood:
     
  4. Jim1999

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    1. no
    2. no
    3. yes

    I still don't like drums, especially when I am offering the pastoral prayer!!!!!

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  5. annsni

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    I think a little drum roll fits the occasion perfectly. Why don't you like it then?


    :laugh:
     
  6. Tom Butler

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    This is for Max3K, whose feelings I ruffled in the previous thread, in his third post said he was exiting the board.

    Brother Max, please don't wear your feelings on your sleeve. This is the debate section, not the cum-bah-yah section. I've had my head handed to me on a plate by some precious brothers and sisters in the course of give and take.

    I hope you'll reconsider your decision to leave us. Actually, I'm a pretty nice guy. And quite humble. And proud of it.
     
  7. Jim1999

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    I think a little drum roll fits the occasion perfectly. Why don't you like it then?
    ----------------------------------------

    At my age, it is something like playing the last post. Maybe the drum roll gives me that feeling when I am praying...

    One church where I preach near here actually removes the drummer from the band when I am coming to preach.....:applause:

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  8. hawg_427

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    Our Church band plays contemporary Christian music. I am 49 and Love it, I guess it's whatever you were brought up with. I listened to rock music most of my life, I like all types of music. Certain songs like Amazing Grace should not be modernized in my opinion, but hey, to each his/her own. No you will not go to hell for or listening to guitar music in the worship service. :godisgood:
     
  9. rbell

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    How 'bout a rim shot, if you say something funny during the prayer?

    :D :D
     
  10. rbell

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    Funny...the other thread preceding this one was a rout. Several things were clear:

    1. There is some Church of Christ doctrine that IMO is wrong, but I can at least understand how they got there. This is one that seems to have progressed in the following manner (all opinion, mine):
      1. The Campbells and Barton Stone were personally opposed to instrumental music in worship;
      2. Those who carried their movement forward took their opposition to music, and attempted to craft Scriptural arguments to support said position.
    2. Whenever it was pointed out that Scripture itself speaks of instruments and worship (Revelation, harps), that point would either be ignored, or explained away (and not convincingly).
    3. Not once was the CoC position of "instruments in worship are a sin" able to be explained throught Scripture.
    4. When the "argument from silence" issue was used to support no instruments, inadequate (or non-existent) answers were given for other things done in worship that Scripture is silent on.
    5. A piano in worship is sinful. A pitch pipe in worship is not. :confused:
     
  11. rbell

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    BTW...I'm seeing a departure from this position in many church of Christ congregations. I know of a few larger CoC churches in my part of the state are beginning to use instrumental music some. A couple are installing pianos in the sanctuary.
     
  12. TCGreek

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    Those CoCs are getting it. Now if they can only get rid of that one true church misguided concept.
     
  13. defenderofthefaith

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    Exactly, you do not want to look at the evidence, to look beyond the first assumption of the meaning - you don't what to look deeper. You don't want to look at what the rest of the book of Revelation is like and then apply it to what this one verse in Revelation - because if you did that then you'd be incorrect in your assumption that Revelation authorizes music (harps) in worship.
    But say the harps really mean harps and were used in worship....

    Even if "the four living creatures and the four and twenty elders" who "fell down before the Lamb" with the "one hundred and forty-four thousand standing on mount Zion," and the "victorious" hosts "standing by the sea of glass" in the vision of John on Patmos, and the harpers and elders did use harps, (and/or all other kinds of musical instruments in the praise of God) it would logically follow, as the thoughtful and well informed will admit, that therefore such instruments may be used by Christians in the worship of God here on earth. Not only that, but is would again logicall follow; (from the fact) that such instruments were used in the Jewish worship, therefore they may be used in Christian worship. Correct?

    Revelation 5:8-9
    "And when he had taken the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having each one a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof; for thou wast slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,"
    Revelation 14:1-3
    "And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on the mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty and four thousand, having his name, and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder; and the voice which I heard was as the voice of harpers harping with their harps; and they sing as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no man could learn the song save the hundred and forty and four thousand, even they that had been purchased out of the earth,"
    Revelation 15:2-3
    "And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire; and them that come off victorious from the beast, and from his image, and from the number of his name, standing by the sea of glass, having harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb,"

    Now, it is alleged that these verses from Revelation qualify as "authorization" for using musical instruments in worship today. Some will say that they are rendering this song to God in connection with harps, that is, in connection with instruments of music and thus we have God's approval. Singing the song of Moses, singing the song of the Lamb, who was Christ, and they did that in connection with the use of harps and other instruments of music. Now, if we are authorized to sing psalms, and we find out that those who sang the psalms did so in connection with instruments of music (such as in heaven), we find out that those who sang the psalms did it in connection with instruments of music, and that God approved it - in heaven.
    This is the argument many like to use.


    "They are rendering it in connection with harps." Well, what if they are? What if they are rendering it in connection with harps and every other kind of musical instrument that was ever made? They are not a church of Jesus Christ, they are not a church established by Christ on earth, they are not a church bought with Christ's blood. They are not an assembly of Christians worshiping God here on earth during the Christian dispensation; and hence nothing that they are doing, that is, simply because they are doing it, can be properly quoted as an example governing the worship of such an assembly of Christians.
    Who, then, are these persons mentioned in Revelation, and where are they? John tells us that they are "before the throne and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hands;" that "the four living creatures and the four and twenty elders" with "many angels round about the throne" are among them; that they have "come out of the great tribulation" having "washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb;" and that "they shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun strike upon them, nor any heat; for the Lamb that is in the midst of the throne shall be their Shepherd, and shall guide them unto fountains of waters of life; and God shall wipe away every tear from their eyes."

    These are some of the terms in which John introduces us to this celestial company. The idea of quoting what they are doing and setting it forth as an example governing the worship of Christ's church here on earth, is certainly wide of the mark. Be it said, once for all, that, on the hypothesis that there is a literal material "sea of glass mingled with fire," and that these are literal material harps, if God sees proper to have such instruments of music in His worship in heaven, nobody, of course, should object to it, neither would a christian object to it in His worship here on earth, if He should see proper to have it here (which he hasn't)

    Referring to these "harpers harping with their harps" in heaven many will say "These have God's approval." Certainly "they have God's approval" in that worship, precisely as, at the same time and in the same worship, "God's approval" was upon "golden bowls full of incense," "a golden censer," and "the golden altar which was before the throne" where "the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God."
    Hence, according to the arguement now under examination, a church of Jesus Christ is divinely authorized to have "golden bowls full of incense," "a golden censer," and a "golden altar," to set them up in the place of worship, and there burn incense on the golden altar in the worship of God. If not, why not? If any stickler for divine authority should call in question the use of golden bowls full of incense, a golden censer, a golden altar, and the burning of incense in the worship of God today, the author of this logic could promptly say: "There it is, singing the song of Moses, singing the song of the Lamb, who was Christ, and they did that in connection with the use of" golden bowls, a golden censer, a golden altar, and the burning of incense, "and if we are admonished to sing psalms, then we find out that those who sang did it in connection with" golden bowls, a golden censer, a golden altar, and the burning of incense, "and that God approved it, who shall say otherwiese?" From the premises laid down, this conclusion inevitably follows, and there is no escape from it.

    We will now examine the Greek word ωδη (ode), which is the word used in connection with what is related of the harps and harpers in Revelation. It is alleged that because harpers harping with their harps are mentioned in Revelation in connection with those who sang the ode in that heavenly worship, therefore, when we sing the ode in Christian worship here on the earth (which the Scriptures tell us to do) we may harp with harps, or use other instruments of music. The assumption is that the word "ode" carries with it the idea of the harp or other such instrument, and that the case of the harpers in Revelation shows us how to "render the ode," namely, by accompanying it with harps or other such instruments of music.

    - Thayer defines ωδη, the noun, as follows: "a song, lay, ode; in the Scriptures a song in praise of God or Christ." He defines αδω, which is the same word in the verb form, as follows: "to sing, chant."
    - Sophocles defines ωδη: "ode, song." He defines the verb simply: "to sing."
    - Robinson: "ωδη an ode, song, e. g. in praise of God;" the verb: "to sing, with Dative of person to sing to any one, in his praise and honor."

    It is needless to quote other authorities. These are sufficient to show, beyond all successful contradiction, that this term, in the noun form in the Scriptures, always means simply a song, an ode, and in the verb form, to sing, to chant. It has no other meaning, conveys no other idea.

    We can logically conclude that the "harpers" in heaven cannot be looked to as an example how Christians in the New Testament church here on earth should go through worship.
     
  14. Salty

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    DOF

    Please answer post # 2 :BangHead:
     
  15. defenderofthefaith

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    Do not try to start an argument about baptism into this thread - thats for another thread my friend.
    But I can't help but to point something out for you -
    What is the Gospel according to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4?
    "Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand,
    And by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you— unless you believed in vain.
    For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,
    that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures.


    Christ's death, burial and resurrection is of the gospel.
    Romans 6:2-4
    "...How can we who died to sin still live in it?
    Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
    We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life."


    Baptism - death to sin, burial with Christ, resurrection with Christ to walk in newness of life as Christ did.
    Baptism is a part of the Gospel my friend. Don't argue with the scriptures.

    Worship to God is very much a part of the confirmed word (Mark 16:20) and by adding to that worship - we are adding to what has been confirmed.

    I will use Mark 16:20 instead -
    "And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen."

    Part of "the word" was concerning worship to God and by using musical instruments we are adding to that confirmed word.

    They do not do it by the authority of the Lord!
    Again, what I said -
    Now, DHK -

    You want to criticize every part of my example - but you criticize what I never said or implied.
    My example was to provide evidence from other scriptures to show that Colossians 3:17 meant that you should do all things by the authority of Jesus Christ. It would be completely different if I was using Acts 2&4 to argue against musical instruments - but I never even implied that! I was using Acts 2&4 to show what Colossians 3:17 means - and then I use Colossians 3:17 to argue against musical instruments.

    You like to use 1 Corinthians 10:31 to support your argument for instrumental music -
    1 Corinthians 10:31
    Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, (including playing instruments) do all to the glory of God."

    You allege that "whatsoever ye do" includes playing musical instruments.
    See Colossians 3:17
    "And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him."

    So we can see from 1 Corinthians that whatever we do we should do it to the glory of God and then we see from Colossians that whatever we do we must do it "in the name of" or by the authority of the Lord Jesus.

    And the above statement still stands.

    Colossians 3:17
    "And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him."

    I'm quite sure it means WHATEVER we do (including playing musical instruments as you allege), we must do it by the authority of Jesus Christ - not just the gospel.
     
  16. defenderofthefaith

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    Of course! Sorry, I was replying to posts made before yours (in the other topic about musical instruments).

    Thats the problem. Some people don't want to look deep into the scripture, to look beyond the simple translation, to truly find out what each and every word means among the context.
    But I will try to keep my responses short since you requested that I keep it short - but if you truly wanted to know...I think you'd be willing to read extremely long dissertations.

    First we must understand that when a person plays a musical instruments during worship they are adding to the acts of worship, they go beyond what is written, they have no authorization from the New Testament for playing musical instruments, playing musical instruments is not found in the doctrine of Christ.
    1 Corinthians 4:6
    “And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another."

    2 John 9
    "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son."

    Colossians 4:17
    "And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him."

    We have been told not to add to the confirmed word (Galatians 3:15) and the word has been confirmed (Mark 16:20) so since musical instruments isn't found in that "confirmed word" we musn't add to it!

    We have been commanded to sing!
    Ephesians 5:19 "Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;"
    Colossians 3:16 "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord."

    By "playing & singing" we are adding to the act of worship to just sing.
    So the conclusion is yours....is going above which is written, is adding to the confirmed word, is going outside of the doctrine of Christ, is doing things without authorization, is adding to the acts of worship - is this a sin?

    I say it is. Yes, it is a sin.

    Romans 6:1-2
    "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?
    By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?"


    End up in Hell? Why would Paul urge you against continuing in sin - with the idea that grace "may abound"? He says "how can we who died to sin" (through baptism (Vs. 3-4) "still live in it"?
    Why would Paul urge you against sinning if it wouldn't affect if you went to heaven or hell?
    John 4:24
    "God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."
    Clearly worship is important for we must worship in spirit and in truth!

    I am not in the position to condemn you to hell for playing musical instruments - but don't you think that if it is a sin, then we should cut it out - and worship God in spirit and in truth.

    This is very interesting.
    We have no authority to use musical instruments in the assembled worship. But if a concert has two or more Christians gathered in Jesus' name then this can be considered a worship service - so I'd say that it isn't acceptable.
    We were told just to sing (Eph. 5:19) so a "concert" that a "Gospel group" is putting on is very acceptable if they are just singing.
     
    #16 defenderofthefaith, Jan 1, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 1, 2009
  17. billwald

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    We all go to hell for using electricity instead of oil lamps? Same matter as music?
     
  18. defenderofthefaith

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    billwald,
    Electricity does not interact with the acts of worship. Musical instruments are used to worship God - but the electricity does not worship God...EVER.
    Electricity does not invade the act of singing - does not go beyond the simple command to "sing" - does not add to the singing. Electricity or oil lamps or pitch black...we're still just singing.
    Musical instruments; were not just singing anymore; we're singing and playing.
     
  19. annsni

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    This is not an effective argument IMO. Lighting, heating, pews or seats, hymnals and even the church building are not mentioned in Scripture but certainly does invade the act of singing. If you say it doesn't, then go out into a field in the dark and sing. It enhances worship but God does not tell us to go out and look at the stars in worship. My family has worshipped in a car - but God does not tell us to drive during worship but it most certainly invades the act of singing. Using music behind our music makes as much difference as having lighting, IMO. Yes, it enhances it but it doesn't change us because it's the act of worship and our hearts in worship that's of concern to God. He gave us talents. He gave us the gift of music. To turn around and use that to glorify Him is not a sin. Period.
     
  20. Darron Steele

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    DefenderoftheFaith:

    This post is the first part of what was going to be one post.

    On this post, for the last time, I will highlight some portions of your post -- or whomever you are quoting without crediting = plariarizing -- and comment in some depth. I will highlight the portions at which the author admits the conclusions that would be most sensible. I will then comment at some level of depth.

    The reason I doubt it is you is that the style seems very different from yours, and seems to be at a higher intellectual plane. Last time you quoted material similar to this, you acknowledged it, and were challenged as to why we should heed that person. Perhaps you intended to avoid that this time. Nonetheless, a lot of this material seems to be someone else's.
    Great: you have shown that not only do the Scriptures show God's approval of musical instruments, Scripture approves the burning of incense as well, and some other things it seems.

    How does this help your view that musical instruments are banned. Your assumption that incense should be banned too? I will just let Scripture mean what it says.

    There is absolutely no evidence that this passage does not convey exactly what John was seeing. What is the problem believing that in Heaven there is a sea of glass mixed with fire? I see no problem with that.

    I can understand why symbolic language might be used about events on the earth. What would be the point of being `allegorical' about descriptions of Heaven? Is the whole book of Revelation allegory? Were the seven congregations of Asia not to really believe what Jesus Christ was saying to them?

    The idea that no part of Revelation should be believed is nonsense. The congregations addressed should have believed what was said to them by Jesus Christ. We should believe John's description of worship in Heaven.

    Right, such as `sing at the exclusion of musical instruments.'

    As shown clearly by common sense, it is obvious that "sing" at Revelation 5 does not mean that the harps were not used for their normal purpose.
    Right; `It is obvious that no matter what the passage shows, it cannot demonstrate how God likes to be worshiped -- even though it is His Heavenly abode.'

    Rubbish. I will leave this matter at that.
     
    #20 Darron Steele, Jan 2, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 2, 2009

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