Must salvation include correct doctrine?

Uhhh, DHK, I wasn't getting involved in any RCC discussions here. Others were discussing them as a specific.

If you look at my last post, you'll see that I believe adherence to the doctrine of salvation is critical to salvation, but, for all other doctrine to be just as critical to salvation is where I disagree with the idea of all doctrine needs to be correct for salvation. I don't think you realize that your viewpoint is about the same as mine.

 

DHK,

"You refer to some who differ with us by believing in KJVO, or in wearing headcoverings. This is the most anemic argument I have ever heard. These matters have nothing to do with salvation..."

I don't think John's statement is quite as unreasonable as you may think.

There are many among us (baptists) who place many works of legalism right along salvation! How many people have we seen on this board who assert that one is lost if he/she does not believe eternal security or does not use a KJV bible? These represent perversions of Christ's gospel - perversions which are as flagrant as catholic sacramentalism.

 

No, in and of itself, it wasn't wrong. But put in the context of a Catholic theology discussion, it seemed out of place. Most of the preceding posts were directly associated with Catholic doctrine. So I assumed that he was comparing these doctrines, or differences among Baptists, to Catholic doctrine. Otherwise I agree with you.
DHK

 

I have done that and quoted from them where they declare that Protestants are Christians and therefore saved, but to some people the facts are irrelevant.

 

I have done that and quoted from them where they declare that Protestants are Christians and therefore saved, but to some people the facts are irrelevant. </font>[/QUOTE]This is the Catholic Catechism:

The sacrament of Baptism is baptism in the Catholic Church. Baptists do not have sacraments; we have ordinances. There is a big difference between the two. It is more than just semantics. The Catholics say that baptism saves. They say that one is born again through baptism. They say that through baptism you become a member of the Catholic Church. They also say that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church.

From the Documents of Vatican II. Chapter 2

If these quotes are not clear enough then what is? Are you going to deny their own authorities?
DHK

 

No, you have to read more carefully. I do not know of even one Roman Catholic Theologian who would agree with your interpretation. Roman Catholics DO recognize Baptists and other Protestants as Christians:

Vatican II

Decree on Ecumenism

Note: The term "separated brethren" refers to Protestants.

Unitatis Redintegratio

Introduction
Sect. 1
The restoration of unity among all Christians is one of the principal concerns of the Second Vatican Council. Christ the Lord founded one Church and one Church only. However, many Christian communions present themselves to men as the true inheritors of Jesus Christ; all indeed profess to be followers of the Lord but differ in mind and go their different ways, as if Christ Himself were divided.(1) Such division openly contradicts the will of Christ, scandalizes the world, and damages the holy cause of preaching the Gospel to every creature.
Chapter 1 -- Catholic Principles on Ecumenism
Sect. 3
Even in the beginnings of this one and only Church of God there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly condemned. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions made their appearance and quite large communities came to be separated from full communion with the Catholic Church -- for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame. The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection. For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect. . . . It remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ's body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church. . . . Our separated brethren, whether considered as individuals or as Communities and Churches, are not blessed with that unity which Jesus Christ wished to bestow on all those who through Him were born again into one body.
Sect. 4
Catholics, in their ecumenical work, must assuredly be concerned for their separated brethren, praying for them, keeping them informed about the Church, making the first approaches toward them. . . . Although the Catholic Church has been endowed with all divinely revealed truth and with all means of grace, yet its members fail to live by them with all the fervor that they should, so that the radiance of the Church's image is less clear in the eyes of our separated brethren and of the world at large, and the growth of God's kingdom is delayed. . . . Catholics must gladly acknowledge and esteem the truly Christian endowments from our common heritage which are to be found among our separated brethren. . . . Nor should we forget that anything wrought by the Grace Of The Holy Spirit in the hearts of our separated brethren can be a help to our own edification.
Chapter 2 -- The Practice of Ecumenism
Sect. 8
In certain special circumstances, such as the prescribed prayers "for unity," and during ecumenical gatherings, it is allowable, indeed desirable that Catholics should join in prayer with their separated brethren. . . . Yet worship in common . . . is not to be considered as a means to be used indiscriminately for the restoration of Christian unity.
Sect. 9
We must get to know the outlook of our separated brethren.
Chapter 3 -- Churches and Ecclesial Communities Separated From the Roman Apostolic See -- Separated Churches and Ecclesial Communities in the West
Sect. 13
Other divisions arose more than four centuries later in the West, stemming from the events which are usually referred to as "The Reformation." As a result, many Communions, national or confessional, were separated from the Roman See.
Sect. 19
However, since these Churches and ecclesial Communities, on account of their different origins, and different teachings in matters of doctrine on the spiritual life, vary considerably not only with us, but also among themselves, the task of describing them at all adequately is extremely difficult. . . . It must however be admitted that in these Churches and ecclesial Communities there exist important differences from the Catholic Church, not only of an historical, sociological, psychological and cultural character, but especially in the interpretation of revealed truth.
Sect. 20
Our thoughts turn first to those Christians who make open confession of Jesus Christ as God and Lord and as the sole Mediator between God and men, to the glory of the one God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We are aware indeed that there exist considerable divergences from the doctrine of the Catholic Church concerning Christ Himself, the Word of God made flesh, the work of redemption, and consequently, concerning the mystery and ministry of the Church, and the role of Mary in the plan of salvation. But we rejoice to see that our separated brethren look to Christ as the source and center of Church unity.
Sect. 21
A love and reverence of Sacred Scripture which might be described as devotion, leads our brethren to a constant meditative study of the sacred text. . . . But while the Christians who are separated from us hold the divine authority of the Sacred Books, they differ from ours-some in one way, some in another-regarding the relationship between Scripture and the Church. For, according to Catholic belief, the authentic teaching authority of the Church has a special place in the interpretation and preaching of the written word of God.
Sect. 22
Whenever the Sacrament of Baptism is duly administered as Our Lord instituted it, and is received with the right dispositions, a person is truly incorporated into the crucified and glorified Christ. . . . The ecclesial Communities which are separated from us lack the fullness of unity with us flowing from Baptism, and though we believe they have not retained the proper reality of the eucharistic mystery in its fullness, especially because of the absence of the sacrament of Orders.
Sect. 23
The daily Christian life of these brethren is nourished by their faith in Christ and strengthened by the grace of Baptism and by hearing the word of God. This shows itself in their private prayer, their meditation on the Bible, in their Christian family life, and in the worship of a community gathered together to praise God. Moreover, their form of worship sometimes displays notable features of the liturgy which they shared with us of old. Their faith in Christ bears fruit in praise and thanksgiving for the blessings received from the hands of God. Among them, too, is a strong sense of justice and a true charity toward their neighbor. This active faith has been responsible for many organizations for the relief of spiritual and material distress, the furtherance of the education of youth, the improvement of the social conditions of life, and the promotion of peace throughout the world.

 

I NEVER said that Catholics were Baptists or that both groups have identical beliefs regarding Baptism.

 

You do NOT understand the Roman Catholic doctrine of Baptism. Perhaps if you would study the writings of the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers on water baptism it would give you a little bit of a grasp on that doctrine. If you don’t care for that approach, I suggest that you do a detailed study of water baptism in the Book of Acts in the New Testament. Be sure to carefully and prayerfully read the commentaries on Acts by some of the best Lutheran, Methodist, and Presbyterian writers, because doing so will help you to get a feel for the subject and help to you understand water Baptism in the Bible from a broader perspective. If you will do this, you will learn that although the Roman Catholic view of water baptism is very different from the view of IFB churches, and indeed from most Baptists, it is not so very different from the view of some other Protestant denominations.
(And you will also learn to a substantial extent why many IFB pastors deny that Lutherans, Methodists, and Presbyterians are saved).

 

From the same paragraph:

Ecumenism, to the Catholic Church, is bringing all religions together under the Catholic umbrella. This much is evident from their writings. Under certain circumstances they will consider them as "Catholic" Note, that salvation is through baptism. In fact one has to be "truly baptized," a phrase referring to Catholic baptism. The Baptist's immersion would never be acceptable. One is "reborn" through baptism. Here is the new birth again. You must be born again, Jesus said, but Jesus never had baptism in mind. The Catholic church, teaching baptismal regeneration, teaches heresy. These quotes teach that only through the Catholic church comes the fullness of grace and truth. You cannot be saved without it. You cannot be saved without Catholic baptism. You cannot be saved without being a Catholic, ecumenism not withstanding.
DHK

 

I see here very plainly that facts mean absolutely nothing to you if you do not agree with them; therefore I shall now terminate my discourse with you on this subject.

 

Revelation 17:1-6 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. 3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Is this the Catholic Church of the future? A good possibility.

 

You mean I quote you the facts, and you disbelieve them. Isn't that the case. Would you like the Catechism, and the words of their own apologists, as well as the experiences of others.
DHK

 

You mean I quote you the facts, and you disbelieve them. Isn't that the case. Would you like the Catechism, and the words of their own apologists, as well as the experiences of others.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]

 

I have a library of commentaries and other books that number about 2,000 not including the software on my computer. I have read commentaries from all of the above. I know what they believe. My wife was a former Presbyterian. She was also very evangelical. It wasn't her baptism that saved her, and she knew it. Many of the Protestant denominations are evangelical, and many have slipped into modernism. That is also true of some Baptist churches.
It is apparent that you do not understand what baptism is according to a Catholic. I was baptized as a Catholic, confirmed as Catholic, catechized as a Catholic, an altar boy for many years, a lector in the church. You are trying to tell me that I know squat about what was my own religion for more than two decades!

I have also encountered Catholic priests and other clergy and discussed these issues. Using the Bible as a basis, they don't have any answers. John 3:5 means baptism to them, and that is all. Why do you contradict all the evidence that is given you. You set yourself up as your own authority and deny everything that is set in front of you.
DHK

 

Without directing this post to any specific individuals, I would like to say that I find it absolutely appalling that anyone who calls himself a “Baptist” would deny the fundamental teaching of the Bible that we are saved by grace through faith, and teach instead that we are saved by believing in, and adhering to, correct doctrines as evaluated by their particular Baptist denomination or local, independent Baptist congregation, under the guise that their particular beliefs are the “orthodox” beliefs, and deny the hand of fellowship to our brothers and sisters in the Roman Catholic Church.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
Apostle Peter

 

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

1Cor. 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Cor. 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Cor. 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1Cor. 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
1Cor. 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
1Cor. 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

 

Rom. 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.