my initial post on gospel/eternal salvation....

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by pinoybaptist, Oct 11, 2014.

  1. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
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    Since there are no other groups of Baptists that hold to Eternal Salvation as different from Time Salvation, I quote from Elder David Montgomery:


    ----source----->Proving Time Salvation----
    written by Elder David Montgomery
    PrimitiveBaptist.org
    Time salvation is eternal salvation revealed, and lived by the child of grace. weak definition, I know, but, with my limited English vocabulary, not being born and raised in it, that is how I can best define it.
    The shortest word I can condense it in is : knowledge. knowledge derived from teaching. By ministers, by preachers, by teachers.

    Eternal salvation of the elect children of God, who are and have been in this time world for generations, before, during, and after the cross, in every continent, sub-continent, island and islet, archipelago and everywhere else the descendants of Noah spread out, is absolutely free of any human input: repentance, faith, etc.

    Human delineations divide them and separate them. Politics, geography, chronology, faiths, creeds, religions, these all divide them, and all these have been transcended by the grace and mercy of God, a truth which he demonstrated time and again to all generations for whom He gave and preserved His word by the way He dealt with Israel: For he remembered that they were but flesh; a wind that passeth away , and cometh not again . (Psalms 78:39).

    Time salvation is gospel instruction obeyed, adhered to, believed in. Unfortunately, while eternal salvation is absolutely unconditional in its eternal benefits, time salvation is not.
    Eternal salvation, having been authored by God Himself for those whom He chose from before the salvation of the world, demanded nothing in exchange for the grace and mercy extended.
    Time salvation on the other hand, requires PROOF of faith, WORKS meet for repentance, obedience and submission, but not without its compensations for such.
     
    #1 pinoybaptist, Oct 11, 2014
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  2. Revmitchell

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    Looks alot like MIllenial Exclsusion
     
  3. salzer mtn

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    pinoy, the biggest problem I have with the PB belief is people can be eternally saved without never knowing the name of Christ, never hearing of Christ mentioned in their life time. As has already been discussed, the heathen who could be regenerated by the Spirit yet live their life without any knowledge of God or Christ. In St. John 16:7-9 it speaks of the Comforter that will come into the world and when he is come he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment. Of sin BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE NOT ON ME. This is the nail that seals the coffin concerning PB doctrine. This is the sin that will send a person to hell, rejecting Christ. Preaching the gospel for salvation gives man a choice, whether elected or not. Your doctrine gives man no choice at all.
     
  4. pinoybaptist

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    I completely understand your frustration. It is hard to wrap our minds around the fact that God's election of His people was from the foundation of the world UNLESS the foundation of the world was at the culmination of Christ's death at the cross.
    If it was from the beginning of time (as one translation puts it) then we have to concur to the truth that even as God flooded the entire world in Noah's time, He had people among those He destroyed in this time world, and preserved Noah because from Noah, the line of the Messiah must continue as He purposed in eternity past.
    Noah was just as evil as the rest of them, though perhaps not of the magnitude that the rest were (there is no one that seeketh God). But, Noah, found grace in the sight of the Lord.
    And from Noah, the rest of the world was again populated, according to Scriptures, which suggests to us that every man on this planet from then on descended from Noah.
    Which further suggests to us that when God wrote His people's names in His mind (what the Bible calls the book of life) included among these are those who descended from Noah who scattered all over the planet.
    While God chose to record for posterity His dealings with His own by Noah and onwards, we need to see that He has people all over the world, even then, and they, as well as Noah, found grace in the sight of the Lord, as did you and I.

    Then it is no longer grace.
    I think you will be among the first who will define grace as unmerited favor.
    So you will have to take that up with the apostle Paul who wrote the following in Romans 3:
    For what if some did not believe ? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect ? 4 God forbid : yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written , That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged .
    Am I saying that Jesus lied ?
    Not at all.
    What He said did happen.
    Who is this that the Spirit will reprove ?
    First, the Jews, and this happened in the Pentecost, first to the 3,000, then the rest of them.

    Not at all.

    No. Read your Bible.
    Revelation tells us that what finally seals the doom of those who is to be cast into the lake of fire along with death, Satan, and his angels, is their not being found in the book of life.
    Because that means (1) God does not know them. What was Jesus' reply to those who would dazzle Him with their works for him ? I never knew you. If He never knew them, then (2) those not found in the book of life has NO Savior to look to, no blood to plead on.

    So, in effect, you are saying Christ notwithstanding, and God's mercy as well, in the final analysis, it is your choice of God, and not His of you, that bears more weight and strength ?
    Do you realize what you are saying ?
     
  5. pinoybaptist

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    Oh, shaddap.
    why don't you demand that I and PB's be banned from this site, then.
    go on, I dare and double dare you.
    put up, or shut up.
    debate, and if you can't, then cease your drive-by, ambush comments and stuff them somewhere else.
     
  6. DHK

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    Sorry to be crass, but when you divide up salvation, I can't help but compare your system of theology to others':
    http://www.christiananswers.net/q-acb/acb-r002c.html

    Those spirits existing in eternity simply need a "time salvation."
    Sounds familiar doesn't it? I know it is not all the same, but when you start with a wrong premise you end up with wrong doctrine. The wrong premise is "before the foundation of the world." You weren't there.
    Time was and is created for man. There is only one salvation. That salvation hinges on faith: sola fide.
    He came to his own and his own received him not. They did not believe.
    But as many as received him...even to them that believe on his name.
    Eternal salvation comes to those who believe on the name of Christ. It is a gift, the gift of God.

    You don't get to be the one who decides who is elect and who is not.
    Our duty is to carry out the Great Commission and leave the duty of who is elect or not up to God.
     
  7. The Biblicist

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    The biggest problem I have with your view is the failure to recognize that not even God claims that His eternal purpose stands apart from time implementation of it and I quote:

    Isa.46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
    11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

    A purpose without fulfillment is oxymoronic. Clearly God confesses that his purpose must include fulfillment in time. There is no literal completion of God's purpose outside of time. Notice that he says what he "purposed" and all of his "counsel" is still not done but the future tense "will do" and "will also do" it.

    Election is "UNTO" salvation, rather than being salvation or the completion of salvation.

    The Bible makes a clear distinction between what God purposed in eternity and its actual implementation to make it complete. A purpose without implementation is irrational and useless. Indeed, the actual purpose of God is incomplete without time as it is purposed with time in view and thus can only finds its completion with time.

    Therefore, no man cometh to the Father but by Christ and this refers to the conscious act of coming to the Father not some unconscious act separated from the human being before the world began.
     
    #7 The Biblicist, Oct 18, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 18, 2014
  8. The Biblicist

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    Surely any "eternal purpose" that is not inclusive of time or implemtation would be an incomplete and flawed purpose. God did not consider His eternal purpose as self-contained and complete or he would never say what he purposed "I will also do it" but rather would have said "what I have purpose is done."
     
  9. pinoybaptist

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    apology noted, but I did not divide salvation. the word of God, PROPERLY DIVIDED, does.

    And neither were you. And comparing primitive baptist doctrine with moronic mormon doctrine is comparing apples and vinegar.

    And in both eternity, and time, God is Master.
    While TIME salvation demands faith, as I have repeatedly said elsewhere, eternal salvation does not.

    And the Jews were who he declared His own, in the national sense, to whom He came.

    Classic. you accuse me of dividing salvation, and yet you divide Scripture to preach man-made doctrines.

    Here's the next verse:
    Which were born , not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, BUT of God.

    A gift given to them whether they know there is a gift from heaven to them, or not, check out your own verse, and the one I added for context.

    Never did say I decide.
    Always said in many posts I wasn't there when the book of life were written from the foundation of the world.
    However, you don't have authority to put man's choice of God, over God's choice of which sinner He loves.

    The great commission, if there is such a one, is not my duty if its purpose is to duplicate what the Savior has already done.
    You go ahead, be my guest.
     
    #9 pinoybaptist, Oct 18, 2014
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  10. pinoybaptist

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    And how does that contradict what is said about time salvation ? time salvation is NOT ABOUT THE SOUL BEING SAVED FROM THE LAKE OF FIRE, it is ABOUT THE REDEEMED, THEREFORE SAVED SOUL, being snatched out of idol worship or wrong theology and being taught GOSPEL LIFE, submission, and obedience to its Savior, in order for that obedience to bring to him its NATURAL results which is blessing.

    All of God's eternal purposes, as far as His people, both in national Israel and in spiritual Israel has already come to pass here in time.
    Christ has come, and given substance to counsel that was formed between Him, the Father and the Holy Spirit.
    The cross is past, the blood shed, the tomb empty, and the sinners to be ransomed, already ransomed.
    My biggest problem, to use your own words, with you is you can't seem to wrap these facts around your head, and the reason is because it robs you of glory.
    The Arminian's glory is robbed because the totally independent redemption Christ has obtained for His people deprives them of "winning souls" to God.
    The Calvinist's glory is robbed because of practically the same thing.

    So, in other words, the purpose of God's redemption of His people, is for time ? not for eternity ?

    And don't you agree that the New Testament is the fulfillment of the Old ?

    Unarguably. And what completes that salvation is the blood.
    But if election UNTO salvation is what it is all about, WHY DID GOD HAVE TO SEND HIS SON IN THE FLESH ?
    Didn't John the Baptist tell the self-righteous Jews that God is able of these stones to raise children unto Abraham ?
    So, if election is UNTO salvation, why didn't He just nuke the world out of its existence after the cross ?
    Among other things because His people are spread out ALL OVER THE WORLD, even in that phase of time, and they must know, IN ORDER for them to glorify God in their midst in the presence of their unrighteous generations wherever and whenever God forms a local body.

    We are simply talking past each other, man.

    Here's the frequency I am on.
    Try to get your antenna tuned to it, so you understand what I'm saying.
    TIME SALVATION DOES NOT IN ANY WAY FALSIFY GOD'S ETERNAL PURPOSE FOR HIS PEOPLE.
    TIME SALVATION COMPLEMENTS THE ETERNAL SALVATION OF GOD'S OWN BECAUSE IT IS A RESULT OF THEM HAVING BEEN POINTED TO THE ONE WHO PURCHASED THEM WITH HIS BLOOD.

    see the difference ?
     
  11. pinoybaptist

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    So, does this mean we are still to offer up animal sacrifices ? that the Christia living in an agriculture based economy should bring up his tithes, his faith offerings ?
     
  12. pinoybaptist

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    apparently, you did not even bother to read the post. so I am going to quote again the parts from the first post that I have colored blue, this time colored "red" and bolded.

    When salvation refers to what God does for man without action on his part, and by the meritorious work of Christ, they know and realize that it refers to salvation in its highest order; preparing one to live with God in glory after death.

    When salvation is mentioned in connection with the acts of men; or man is to perform some action to bring about a better situation for himself, they know it is to be to the child of God (one freed from the guilt of sin), and refers to a timely deliverance, or something that is for man's benefit while he lives here in the world."


    It is insulting to one who posts to be answered in any manner when the one replying OBVIOUSLY DID NOT READ HIS POST and just went shooting from the hip.
    Like for example, when somebody who calls himself a reverend, cries out 'millenial exclusion' when the post has nothing to do with backsliding Christians being excluded from millenial blessings.
    But that seems to be the norm for this board of "Christians".
     
    #12 pinoybaptist, Oct 18, 2014
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  13. Earth Wind and Fire

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    And thats NOT what Luther says. In short, "if man contributes any essential part towards his salvation, he effectively becomes his own savior." So you would take issue with the principle of sola gratia. In summation, to add anything (like mans contribution to his own salvation...your words I believe were mans conscious act of coming to the Father) destroys God's grace & its very graciousness (its very nature as a gift).
     
  14. pinoybaptist

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    more on the article on Time Salvation, by Elder David Montgomery:

    In most of his writings, Paul invariably shifts from DOCTRINAL to PRACTICAL.
     
  15. The Biblicist

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    You are proving my point! Animal sacrifices were part of a plan that included a progressive application where type preceded antitype.
     
  16. The Biblicist

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    You miss the point being made in Isaiah by God. He does not separate salvation into two different types but merely ONE. There is no Eternal salvation versus time salvation. What God Purposes is INCOMPLETE without APPLICATION in time. There is no salvation prior to time and another salvation in time, but it is the ONE AND SAME salvation purposed that is implemented. No one is saved before the world began as no one existed before the world began except in the PURPOSE with intent to execute in time.
     
    #16 The Biblicist, Oct 18, 2014
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  17. The Biblicist

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    I am not concerned with what Luther said, but with what God has said. Nowhere does God have one kind of salvation in eternity and another kind in time. The salvation he PURPOSED in eternity is the SAME SALVATION he implements in time - that is precisely what He is saying in Isaiah.
     
  18. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Define salvation.......while your at it, define sola gratia
     
    #18 Earth Wind and Fire, Oct 18, 2014
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  19. The Biblicist

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    Grace in its purpose and design before the world began. Grace in its application in time. Grace in its eternal existence. But it is still ONE salvation rather than two different types.
     
  20. pinoybaptist

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    we're still in a works based economy of salvation ? NOW ?
     

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