My latest attempt at connecting the dots vs. OSAS

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by evangelist-7, May 4, 2013.

  1. evangelist-7

    evangelist-7
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    Here’s my latest attempt to explain why OSAS is false
    … I have connected a few previously unconnected dots!
    All verses are from the NKJV.

    God looks forward to His new covenant
    He gave up on the old covenant … His “chosen people” could not be obedient to it.
    “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant
    I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God,
    and they shall be My people … they all shall know Me, from the least of them
    to the greatest of them, says the LORD.” (Jeremiah 31:31-34)
    “I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you … I will put My Spirit
    within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments
    and do them … you shall be My people, and I will be your God.” (Ezekiel 36:26-28)

    These promises sure sound like what most BACs experience!
    BACs have God’s Spirit inside of them to teach them “all things”
    “… you are the temple of God and the Spirit of God dwells in you” (1 Cor 3:16)
    “… the Helper, the Holy Spirit … He will teach you all things” (John 14:26)


    The simple gospel: “whosoever believes” … is like a hook to catch fishes
    This is just to get these baby fishes started … no deep water and easy swimming!

    • But, says Jesus: FIRST count the cost of discipleship before really signing on
    “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children,
    brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.
    And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.
    For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not
    sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it
    — lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it
    begin to mock him, saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish’? …
    So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.”
    (Luke 14:26-33)

    So, those who decide they have what it takes … have chosen to continue on …

    • Says Jesus: It’s about having a personal relationship with Father God and Me
    “And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God,
    and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.” (John 17:3)
    “I know My sheep, and I am known by My own … My sheep hear My voice,
    and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life” (John 10:14, 27)

    There is a very intimate “knowing” relationship between a shepherd and his sheep!
    Read about it here: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0310274419/?tag=baptis04-20

    • Says Jesus: Eternal life is given ONLY to those who do God’s will
    “Not everyone who says to Me, “Lord, Lord’, shall enter the kingdom of heaven,
    but he who does the will of My Father in heaven … I will declare to them,
    ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’” (Matthew 7:19-21)


    And the following is part of God’s will …

    • Says Paul: We must by led by the Holy Spirit in the killing of the flesh
    “There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,
    who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
    … those who live according to the Spirit, (set their minds on) the things of the Spirit.
    For to be carnally minded is death … Because the carnal mind is enmity against God
    … For if you live according to the flesh you will die;
    but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
    For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.” (Romans 8:1-14)


    • Says Paul: We must co-operate with God’s Spirit in the sanctification process
    Many of the NT translations say both our sanctification and salvation are processes.
    “Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit,
    soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thess 5:23)

    I.E. we were not totally sanctified at the new birth.
    “… that He might sanctify and cleanse her (the church) with the washing of water by the word,
    that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any
    such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.” (Ephesians 5:25-27)

    I.E. this washing by the word is a continuing process.
    “For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one” (Hebrews 2:11)
    “For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.” (Hebrews 10:14)
    “… to us who are being saved it (the gospel) is the power of God.” (1 Corinthians 1:18)
    “… God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit
    and belief in the truth …” (2 Thessalonians 2:13)

    Were we sanctified (set apart) at the new birth by the Holy Spirit, or by Father God?
    If we co-operate, we will be sanctified by the Holy Spirit during the long sanctification process.

    .
     
  2. BobRyan

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    Well when addressing the Bible problem with OSAS - there is always Romans 11

    Romans 11 - NASB
    17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
    18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
    19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
    20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
    21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
    22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
    23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
    24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?


    And of course there is Christ's own teaching on forgiveness revoked in Matt 18

    31 So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
    32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
    33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’
    34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
    35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

    And Gal 5:4
    3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

    WHAT Grace did they fall from?

    Romans 6
    12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,

    13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
    15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!

    16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

    17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,

    18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
     
  3. BobRyan

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    Romans 2 appears to be a huge problem for OSAS. (in the case of "OSAS without perseverance" the way some teach it)


    4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
    5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
    6 who will render to each person according to his deeds:
    7 to those who by perseverance in doing good
    seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
    8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
    9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
    10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
    11 For there is no partiality with God.
    12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
    13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
    14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
    15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
    16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
     
    #3 BobRyan, May 4, 2013
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  4. BobRyan

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    And of course OSAS is pretty much impossible in the Arminian model just like evolutionism is impossible for those who choose to keep the Seventh-day Sabbath of the 4th Commandment.
     
  5. evangelist-7

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    But, the OSAS folks cling to the fewer than 10 powerful verses, which promise their salvation is secure.

    Truly, I see it as many passages battling against the few OSAS verses.

    But, lately, I've been wondering if it is possible that
    the many warnings are actually directed at:
    -- everyone by Jesus in the gospels
    -- non-BACs in the churches by Jesus in Revelation
    -- non-BACs in the churches by the epistles writers

    IMO, there are only a couple of passages,
    which really seem to be directed at BACs ... and some people claim only one.

    .
     
    #5 evangelist-7, May 5, 2013
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  6. BobRyan

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    Well the "you stand only by your faith" statement in Romans 11 looks like a warning to the BAC.

    And so also the guy in Matt 18 "Who was forgiven all".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. Yeshua1

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    JESUS stated that he WILL rise up to etrnal life again ALl the father grant unto him to have, ALL the saved....

    THAT is pretty basic. either he lied, was wrong, or was saying the truth... Which was it?

    New International Version (©2011)
    All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
    New Living Translation (©2007)
    However, those the Father has given me will come to me, and I will never reject them.

    English Standard Version (©2001)
    All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

    New American Standard Bible (©1995)
    "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

    King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
    All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
    Everyone the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will never cast out
     
    #7 Yeshua1, May 6, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: May 6, 2013
  8. evangelist-7

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    How about the guy who has lots of faith in the truth of
    Jesus being the Messiah-Redeemer-Savior ... and ... Jesus gospel, etc.
    but chooses to NOT co-operate with the Holy Spirit in being sanctified?

    I.E. this guy has chosen to "fall away" (Paul's term) from the faith.

    .
     
  9. Yeshua1

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    You are confusing justification with saunctification!

    A Chrsitian refusing to do what God desires, to become more into image of chrsit, will have God react to him, to disciplinre and correct him as one of His children, but NOT cast him out of the family of god!

    jesus said that ALL who come to him, he will cast NONE away!

    That is the pronounce,ment of God Incarnate, do you dispute him?
     
  10. BobRyan

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    In Matt 13 Jesus said that sinning against the Holy Spirit can not be forgiven. In 1John 5 -- we are told that such a sin is terminal.

    But in Matt 13 the parable of the seed and the sower and the ground - some ground accepts the seed springs to life - accepts the Gospel with Joy - but then later falls away, dies. In some ways it is like the "Forgiveness revoked" lesson of Christ in Matt 18.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. evangelist-7

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    Any chance the one receiving the gospel on stony places (Matt 13:20-21), and later stumbled,
    was born-again and received the Holy Spirit, or was he just a tare?

    .
     
  12. BobRyan

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    Christ said it "springs to life"

    and of the person and the Gospel that they "Receive it with joy".

    I call that a born -again saved saint.

    Sadly over time they let the cares of this world choke out their love for Christ and - fall away.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. Yeshua1

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    Chrsitians CANNOT commit that Blashemy against the HS, as it was to Pharisees, the spiritual blinded, not the saints!
     
  14. Yeshua1

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    First 3 groups NOT saved, jsut a progression of levels from hard hearted to 'religious/professing Christ' NOT saved!

    ONLY 4 th group was!
     
  15. BobRyan

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    Surely you have to admit that this doctrine you are preaching would have been wonderful - if you were quoting the Bible just then - instead of ignoring the text of Matt 13 and simply quoting yourself.

    I would argue that this Matt 13 statement about the dead who "spring to life" and who "receive the gospel with joy" - are indeed - born again saints - who later die out.

    Not unlike the Matt 18 "forgiveness revoked" teaching of Christ that follows this teaching of Christ in Matt 13.
     
  16. Yeshua1

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    Jesus was speaking and adressing the PHARISEES, those who were spiritual blind to Him and his work/ministry, so they were saying that jesus was of satan, they refused the truth of the Spirit concerning Him, THAT cannot be recommited today!

    And NOT by saved, NO contex for that here!
     
  17. BobRyan

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    your difficulty in Matt 13 and Matt 18 is that you hold the text at too great distance when you imagine that this is not spoken to the disciples as the text clearly states that in fact it is.

    The idea that the lost must persevere in being lost is never taught in scripture. The perseverance and call to "forgive JUST as I forgave you" is an appeal to the saved - obviously.


    So in Matt 18 Christ reminds us of this fact with His illustration of "forgiveness revoked".

    "I forgave you ALL of that debt" is the up front claim.


    The question in debate is this -- in God's OWN decision "to So love the world that HE GAVE His only begotten son" - (Not a matter of a legal bind on God) did he then "make him to be the atoning sacrifice for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2:2 in such a way as to legally obligate himself to take EVEN those who "do NOT PERSEVERE firm unto the end"?

    According to the Bible - He did not.

    According to the Bible it is ONLY those who "PERSEVERE firm unto the end" that will be saved.

    Matt 24:13
    13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

    Heb 3:14

    14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,



    Hence Romans 2.

    6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
    7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
    8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
    9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
    10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
    11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
    12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
    13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
    14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
    15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
    16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

    That is the Gospel itself as Paul just stated.

    it works on the same "Forgiveness revoked" model as Matt 18

    Matt 18
    32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
    33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
    34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
    35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.




    It works on the same model as Romans 11



    Romans 11


    18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
    19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
    20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
    21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
    22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
    23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

    Our Methodist/Wesleyan/Seventh-day Adventist/Arminian friends will notice that the language above is missing the "legally obligated to take those who do not persevere firm to the end" to heaven language.

    Just as we see in Ezek 18 - no change.

    The whosoever will factor is there - as well as the warning against being the rock-ground that sprin[SIZE=3]gs up "to LIFE" and [SIZE=3]rec[SIZE=3]e[SIZE=3]ives the Word of [SIZE=3]Life quick[SIZE=3]ly and with [SIZE=3]joy - but then [SIZE=3]later falls aw[SIZE=3]ay - dying - returning to the dead state Matt 1[SIZE=3]3.[/SIZE]
    [/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]


    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #17 BobRyan, May 8, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: May 8, 2013
  18. Yeshua1

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    Justification before God is a permanent status change, as God views us from being sinners, to saints now alive in Christ!

    he translated us from Kingdom of satan to Kingdom of Christ, sealed us by the HS...

    The High priest said that he will save FOREVER those that he intercedes for...

    Guess its a case where we have what God said vrs Ellen White, I stick to God!
     
  19. BobRyan

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    Duplicate ... delete
     
    #19 BobRyan, May 11, 2013
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  20. BobRyan

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    Sadly - that is not a Bible text - it is merely you quoting you - or you make a word-of-faith statement of your own.



    It is not too hard to notice that nothing you referenced in scripture says "justification is a permanent status change" . What we have is your inference into the text - where you hoped such an idea could be added or inserted even though the text does not allow it.


    OSAS is not a Bible doctrine. - Rather in Matt 18 Christ teaches "forgiveness revoked" as does Paul in Roman 11, and Gal 5:4 and Hebrews 6 and Ezekiel in Ezek 18.

    That is not the surprising part.

    What IS surprising is that the Baptists also have a statement about OSAS not being true.

    ============================================

    5. That GOD before the Foundation of the World hath Predestinated that all that believe in him shall-be saved, (Ephesians 1:4, 12; Mark 16:16) and al that believe not shall be damned, (Mark 16:16) all which he knew before. (Romans 8:29) And this is the Election and reprobation spoken of in the Scriptures, concerning salvation, and condemnation, and not that GOD hath Predestinated men to be wicked, and so to be damned, but that men being wicked shall be damned, for GOD would have all men saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth, (1 Timothy 2:4) and would have no man to perish, but would have all men come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9) and wills not the death of him that dies. (Ezekiel 18:32). And therefore GOD is the author of no mans condemnation; according to the saying of the Prophet. (Hosea 13). Thy destruction O Israel, is of thy self, but thy help is of me.


    6. That man is justified only by the righteousness of CHRIST, apprehended by faith, (Romans 3:28. Galatians 2:16) yet faith without works is dead. (James 2:17)


    7. That men may fall away from the grace of GOD, (Hebrews 12:15) and from the truth, which they have received &acknowledged, (Hebrews 10:26) after they have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the HOLY GHOST, and have tasted of the good word of GOD, &of the powers of the world to come. (Hebrews 6:4, 5). And after they have escaped from the filthiness of the World, may be tangled again therein &overcome. (2 Peter 2:20). That a righteous man may forsake his righteousness and perish (Ezekiel 18:24, 26). And therefore let no man presume to think that because he hath, or had once grace, therefore he shall always have grace: But let all men have assurance, that if they continue unto the end, they shall be saved: Let no man then presume; but let all work out their salvation with fear and trembling.

    http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/helwysconfession.htm
     

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