My vision of what an IFB church should be

IfbReformer · Sep 1, 2004

Originally posted by pinoybaptist:
In short, I believe in Spirit Regeneration (not preaching regeneration or gospel regeneration) and Spirit Call (not human call).

At any rate, I thank you for being civil and Christian. I simply am trying to address the seemingly growing impression that Primitive Baptists believe 'weirdly'.
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I am not trying to take this argument in circles, only to get your answers based on your doctrinal positions.

I will be working on a paper in the coming months on the PB Gospel, and I am studying websites as well asking people like yourselves questions for clarification.

I used to work with a muslim man. He was a 'God fearing man', even by Christian standards. But he believed the Bible was corrupted by the Jews. Most importantly, he believed Jesus was a prophet and even Messiah, but not in sense we do. He flatly rejected Christ's deity, he flatly rejected Christ's death and resurection and myths invented by Christians. He plainly rejected the need for Christ's atoning work on the cross.

So here is my question for you, if this man is one of God's elect, will he be converted and and accept Christ as his Savior and Lord, and accept Christ's death burial and resurection before he dies?

Or is it possible in your view, that if this man were elect, he could go his whole life, thinking the doctrines of Christ's death and resurection are repugnant, only to enter heaven's gate and have Christ welcome him into heaven, and give him a little correction.

I look forward to your answer.

IFBReformer

pinoybaptist · Sep 1, 2004

I suggest that you go to the following websites for a fair and unbiased study of the Gospel as we in the Primitive Baptist order see it and preach it:

PB.ORG
PRIMITIVE BAPTIST.ORG
PRIMITIVE BAPTIST LIBRARY
OLD LINE PB CHURCHES

In your study of the PB's you might also gain an understanding of the past and present divisions that have come into the ranks of Old School Baptists.

You also asked:

I used to work with a muslim man. He was a 'God fearing man', even by Christian standards. But he believed the Bible was corrupted by the Jews. Most importantly, he believed Jesus was a prophet and even Messiah, but not in sense we do. He flatly rejected Christ's deity, he flatly rejected Christ's death and resurection and myths invented by Christians. He plainly rejected the need for Christ's atoning work on the cross.

So here is my question for you, if this man is one of God's elect, will he be converted and and accept Christ as his Savior and Lord, and accept Christ's death burial and resurection before he dies?

Or is it possible in your view, that if this man were elect, he could go his whole life, thinking the doctrines of Christ's death and resurection are repugnant, only to enter heaven's gate and have Christ welcome him into heaven, and give him a little correction.
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First, we need to examine the difference betwen regeneration/salvation and conversion. Salvation, of course, was decreed by God for His elect in eternity past, typified, illustrated and foreshadowed in the Old Testament, particularly in the emergence of Israel from the loins of one man, Abraham, a type of Christ.

At the cross, this salvation was substantiated, made a fact for all for whom Christ died, past, present, and future, regardless of their race, culture, geographical location, tongue, nation,or creed.[/b] Just as the physical Jews are scattered among all the nations, so the Spiritual Jews are scattered among the nations.

The decree or will to save was the Father's, the act of saving was the Son's, and now, we have the Spirit who is to regenerate the elect and effectually call all the elect to Christ, all these independent of any means and of any man.

Conversion, however, is a continuing process. God converts the already regenerate child thru either (1) nature as we may glean from what Paul says in Romans 1:20.

I remember reading an archaeological magazine in my early believer years about an Aztec or Mayan king whose decree archaeologists found written in a stone tablet ordering that from then on worship must no longer be to the sun, but to the One who made the sun. It seems he was looking up at the sun once when a cloud obscured his vision and he thought if a lowly cloud can obscure the glory of the sun god then there must be a higher God who made the sun. It brings to mind Paul's discourse at Mars Hill.

I will post the continuation for this immediately. Shorter posts are easier to read.

pinoybaptist · Sep 1, 2004

Thank you for your patience.

Now, to your question about your Muslim friend.

As I have already stated, among Primitive Baptists it is not our practice to point a finger at somebody and say, 'this person's soul is damned', since, obviously, (1) That is God's prerogative and no one else's, (2) We are told to judge doctrine but there is no instruction to judge one's eternal standing, and (3) except for Jesus Christ, none of the elect was present when God was writing the names of His elect in the Lamb's Book of Life.

Your friend has been brought under the hearing of the gospel, and God has said His word will not return to Him void. It is now up to God to work in your friend's heart to will and to do of His good pleasure.

If he is one of God's elect, then His conversion process will continue, but it will be in God's own timetable, God's own strategies, and not ours. If he is not one of God's own, then there is one that judgeth him, the word that Jesus has spoken, it will judge him.

Among the PB's our belief is that those elect who have not, will not, and have never been brought under the hearing of the gospel message in their lifetime will close their eyes here on earth and open their eyes in heaven, since they have all been brought under the redeeming blood of Christ. There are no corrections in heaven, because the Bible says, 'the former things will no longer be remembered'.

Salvation and regeneration is independent of any means. It is all of God.

TomVols · Sep 1, 2004

Interesting, IFBREFORMER. I'd love to see the full article. But what you just described is not an IFB church. Sounds Reformed Southern Baptist to me

IfbReformer · Sep 1, 2004

Originally posted by TomVols:
Interesting, IFBREFORMER. I'd love to see the full article. But what you just described is not an IFB church. Sounds Reformed Southern Baptist to me
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The full article can be found at http://www.ifbreformation.org/MyVision.aspx

How would it be southern Baptist? The church I envision would be completely independent, not part of any convention.

You also have to be careful with the term "reformed", because this can apply many ways. I just would like to see IFB churches that are not afraid to preach the soverignty of God, yet they are balanced and do take positions like some Calvinists (eg. MacArthur's Lordship Salvation view) and do not take what I believe to be hertical views of salvation like Primitive Baptists(not Calvinists, but Hyper-Electionists) on the other hand.

IFBReformer

pinoybaptist · Sep 1, 2004

by IFB Reformer:

and do not take what I believe to be hertical views of salvation like Primitive Baptists(not Calvinists, but Hyper-Electionists) on the other hand.
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I took a look at what heretical means from the dictionary and it says:

adj : characterized by departure from accepted beliefs or standards [syn: dissident, heterodox]
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as a noun, heresy means:

her·e·sy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hr-s)
n. pl. her·e·sies

An opinion or a doctrine at variance with established religious beliefs, especially dissension from or denial of Roman Catholic dogma by a professed believer or baptized church member.

Adherence to such dissenting opinion or doctrine.
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So far, all you have offered is talk and have not shown by Scripture why you call us Primitive Baptists heretics. You have formulated labels and attached them to us, such as Hyper-Electionists and Salvation by Election.

On the other hand, Jesus Christ was crucified for preaching against the Law and for teaching that the Father sent Him to redeem those that were given to Him, not those that were adhering to Law, or were confident they were Jews because they were descendants of Abraham, or those that were not sick.

We preach practically the same thing.

That Jesus Christ came to save His own, that His own were given to Him by the Father, that His own are those whom the Three in One foreknew from before the foundation of the world, that His blood was shed for these and these alone, that their salvation is not based on their works, professions of faith, or hearing of the gospel but on the mercy of God and that alone, and that based on His mercy He chose whom He will save, and sent His Son to do that saving, and now, that saving is done, and no more seeking the lost has to be done, Christ has done that and have reconciled all the lost, that what is happening now is a regenerating of the elect, and this regenerating is not dependent on any human means, and all of these can be backed up by Scripture.

For that you call us heretical.

Looks like we are in blessed and good company.

IfbReformer · Sep 3, 2004

Originally posted by pinoybaptist:
So far, all you have offered is talk and have not shown by Scripture why you call us Primitive Baptists heretics. You have formulated labels and attached them to us, such as Hyper-Electionists and Salvation by Election.
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I have provided several scriptures where Christ himself as well as his Apostles said we needed to believe on the name of Christ to be saved.

Now as usual I will clarify it for our audience, that when we believe, it is the Holy Spirit who first has to regenerate us and then cause us to believe. So it is all of God, but belief is a critical part of the salvation process that God has designed and this is what PBs deny, this makes them heretics.

When pinoybaptist's and other PB Baptists see scriptures telling us we need to believe to be saved, they write off all of them(and there are quite a few) as speaking to us only of what they call our "timely salvation".

Read pinoybaptist own posts, and he will say it is possible for a muslim who finds the doctrines of the death burial and resurection of Christ repugnant to be one of God's elect and never turn and believe on the true Christ.

I as a Biblical soverign grace adovocate, accept the Bibles clear statements that God has included belief in the salvation process, and that there is only one kind of salvation, eternal. The fact that God gives us the belief, does not negate the necessity of it from happening in our lifetime.

God converts all his elect - period.

Here are some scripture, some I may have already mention and others not:

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

So how can a muslim, who never believes in him not be condemn according to this clear statement of Christ?

He stands condemned.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

The muslims I have worked with and spoken to reject the Christ of the Bible as myth, and reject his death burial and resurection, yet PBs would have us believe it is possible these people are still elect, but will never be converted in their lifetimes.

Where is this concept found anywhere in the Bible - the answer is nowhere.

John 5:24
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

So Christ said we had to hear his Word and believe on him in order to have eternal life. Whether we hear his through a miraculous vision, or from another Christian, or through some print item, we will hear and follow him if we are his elect, we must if we are to be saved.

John 6:40
For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:47
I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.

This next passage from John illustrates some interesting points:

John 6
63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[1] and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

Christ is speaking to his disciples and clearly tells them "The Spirit gives life" - this refers to regeneration. For the flesh can do nothing on its own. But then he says that there were some of them who did not believe, he does not say, not elect, he says not believe. Because all of his elect would believe.
He then goes on to say that those who do not believe cannot except "the Father has enabled him".

A non-believer for life is a non-elect. There is no such think Biblically as non-believing elect person.

John 8:24
"I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."

Why according to John 8:24 would some die in their sins? Because they "do not believe".

John 10:25-27
25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

Christ makes it clear, that his sheep(none other than his elect) listen and hear his voice, and they follow him.

Yet PBs would have us believe that some of his sheep don't hear and his voice and follow him, yet they are still his sheep, they just will never know until they die and reach heaven.

There are several other passages I could state, but I will leave everyone with this one from the end of John's Gospel:

"John 20:31
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name."

By believing, we have life, eternal life in his name.

Never, ever, does the Bible distinguish between a timely salvation and an eternal salvation, the only distinguishments between Christians are rewards - that is the testimony of the scriptures. But all MUST and WILL believe because the Holy Spirit regernates all Gods elect and causes them to belief.

This has been a good discussion, and I will be using it in the articles I write as a ministry to help PBs come out of these heretical churches.

IFBReformer

pinoybaptist · Sep 4, 2004

IFB Reformer said:

Now as usual I will clarify it for our audience, that when we believe, it is the Holy Spirit who first has to regenerate us and then cause us to believe. So it is all of God, but belief is a critical part of the salvation process that God has designed and this is what PBs deny, this makes them heretics.
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But, then, you see, your very statement itself presents you with a problem you need to resolve first.

Why should God regenerate, or quicken, anyone whom He had no plan of saving, in the first place ? If He regenerates someone it is because this someone is His elect, and if this someone is elect, then his redemption was finished at the cross.

Either his redemption was complete, or it was incomplete, and now, after the Savior shouted it is finished, it is up to the 'elect' one to finalize his redemption by exercising 'saving faith' in Christ.

You say eternal salvation is all of God, and you say God elected those whom He will save based entirely on His own mercy, and nothing else, yet, it seems to me you are saying also that unless one believes the gospel message, one is not saved, so, it seems clear that to you, salvation is a two-way street, a partnership between man and God.

Which one is it, according to you, IFB ?

This is an issue I am raising that you need to address, before you call yourself an authority on Primitive Baptists.

pinoybaptist · Sep 4, 2004

To continue, if someone's redemption was finished at the cross, then when and how did belief and faith unto eternal salvation get exercised by those born before, during, and after the fact of the cross. God did not make it a requirement, or a prerequisite, to eternal salvation.

I repeat, either eternal salvation is all of God, none of man, from start (eternity past) to finish (calvary), or it is part of God, and part of man. No matter what protestations you make to the contrary, an honest scrutiny of your position is that your position is part of man, and part of God.

Every Scripture you hear about the elect hearing the voice of the Son of God you change in understanding to be hearing the voice of the Son of God through the preacher's message of the gospel".

No.

They hear the voice of the Son of God, and it is the Holy Spirit who causes their regeneration, and regeneration is the will of God, not of man, and it is intended for the elect, and the elect were redeemed by Christ apart from any participation from them.

The gospel, on the other hand, is an announcement of good news to those with an already regenerate heart, that brings their life and immortality to light (2 Timothy 1:10).

You quote John 1:12, but do not quote the next verse, just like your Arminian friends, why ? Because the next verse shows that these who received Christ were already believing before He ever came on the scene ?

pinoybaptist · Sep 4, 2004

Go ahead and publish your book.
At best, it will show your ignorance about Primitive Baptists and what we believe and how we came to believe thus.

At worse, it will be another book serving as a testimony to the depravity of man who honor God with their lips, but with hearts far removed from Him.

pinoybaptist · Sep 4, 2004

IFB Reformer also charged:

You believe regeneration does not necesarily cause belief, that is what makes your belief a false Gospel. A Gospel without belief is no gospel at all.
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Wrong. Read my posts very carefully, and read it for how it is written. Don't read what you want to see in them.

God chose. The Son redeemed. The Holy Spirit regenerates. Where is the faith that resulted in one's eternal salvation in this process ?

Did God choose His elect (since you say you believe in God's sovereign electing grace) based on a foreseen belief in them ? Or did He choose based entirely on His mercy.

Did the Son redeem His Father's elect based on a pre-condition that they first believe on Him ? OR did He go up on that cross to redeem them because that was His Father's will.

Does the Holy Spirit regenerate, first on a precondition that one believes ?

Apparently, your answer will all be nays.

So now, why do you want to add 'belief in the gospel message' as a precondition to their eternal salvation ?

The issue we both need to settle first is, is faith and belief a prerequisite to eternal salvation ?

Then, when we settle that, we can go to the next level, what is the role of the gospel message then, and what is the result of believing in the gospel message in the life of an elect child of God ?

Until then, you will be inconsistent with your claim of belief in the sovereignty of God in election.

pinoybaptist · Sep 4, 2004

And here is a blatant lie on your part.

Read pinoybaptist own posts, and he will say it is possible for a muslim who finds the doctrines of the death burial and resurection of Christ repugnant to be one of God's elect and never turn and believe on the true Christ.
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I am cutting and pasting my entire post on this matter. Post #1822, made at 11:20 a.m., September 1, 2004, right above Tom Vols' post:

Thank you for your patience.

Now, to your question about your Muslim friend.

As I have already stated, among Primitive Baptists it is not our practice to point a finger at somebody and say, 'this person's soul is damned', since, obviously, (1) That is God's prerogative and no one else's, (2) We are told to judge doctrine but there is no instruction to judge one's eternal standing, and (3) except for Jesus Christ, none of the elect was present when God was writing the names of His elect in the Lamb's Book of Life.

Your friend has been brought under the hearing of the gospel, and God has said His word will not return to Him void. It is now up to God to work in your friend's heart to will and to do of His good pleasure.

If he is one of God's elect, then His conversion process will continue, but it will be in God's own timetable, God's own strategies, and not ours. If he is not one of God's own, then there is one that judgeth him, the word that Jesus has spoken, it will judge him.

Among the PB's our belief is that those elect who have not, will not, and have never been brought under the hearing of the gospel message in their lifetime will close their eyes here on earth and open their eyes in heaven, since they have all been brought under the redeeming blood of Christ. There are no corrections in heaven, because the Bible says, 'the former things will no longer be remembered'.

Salvation and regeneration is independent of any means. It is all of God.
Click to expand...

Is your Muslim friend dead already ? If yes, then leave that in the hands of God. If not, then let God do His work, but, it is not up to you, me, or anyone to judge him unsaved simply because he did not believe our testimony. How do you know he never will ?

IfbReformer · Sep 5, 2004

Originally posted by pinoybaptist:
IFB Reformer said:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
Now as usual I will clarify it for our audience, that when we believe, it is the Holy Spirit who first has to regenerate us and then cause us to believe. So it is all of God, but belief is a critical part of the salvation process that God has designed and this is what PBs deny, this makes them heretics.
Click to expand...

But, then, you see, your very statement itself presents you with a problem you need to resolve first.

Why should God regenerate, or quicken, anyone whom He had no plan of saving, in the first place ? If He regenerates someone it is because this someone is His elect, and if this someone is elect, then his redemption was finished at the cross.

Either his redemption was complete, or it was incomplete, and now, after the Savior shouted it is finished, it is up to the 'elect' one to finalize his redemption by exercising 'saving faith' in Christ.

You say eternal salvation is all of God, and you say God elected those whom He will save based entirely on His own mercy, and nothing else, yet, it seems to me you are saying also that unless one believes the gospel message, one is not saved, so, it seems clear that to you, salvation is a two-way street, a partnership between man and God.

Which one is it, according to you, IFB ?

This is an issue I am raising that you need to address, before you call yourself an authority on Primitive Baptists. [/QUOTE]pinoybaptist,

Lets take your statements one at a time:

"Why should God regenerate, or quicken, anyone whom He had no plan of saving, in the first place ?"
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Did I ever say that God would regenerate anyone who he had no plan of saving? When God regenerates he saves.

The salvation process works like this:

God elects someone to be saved before the foundation of the world, he chooses a date and time in his own pleasure, and on the day regenerates some which results in a changed nature and he causes them to believe(conversion).

So its all of God, somehow, you seem to think that if belief is part of the salvation process(even though God provides) somehow that makes it not all of God. If God provides the belief, which man cannot do on his own, how does man get an credit?

Your idea however, the God regenerates, but does not always cause someone to believe on his Son Jesus Christ, falls short of Christ's own words which I am supplied for you and our listening audience several times.

Either his redemption was complete, or it was incomplete, and now, after the Savior shouted it is finished, it is up to the 'elect' one to finalize his redemption by exercising 'saving faith' in Christ.
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It is not "up to the 'elect' one to finalize his redemption by exercising 'saving faith' in Christ.". God causes all his elect to believe on the one who redeemed that a Calvary. Thats what you reject, even though the New Testament clearly states in many passages I have provided for you.

You say eternal salvation is all of God, and you say God elected those whom He will save based entirely on His own mercy, and nothing else, yet, it seems to me you are saying also that unless one believes the gospel message, one is not saved, so, it seems clear that to you, salvation is a two-way street, a partnership between man and God.
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It seems to me that you try and paint a non-existant contradiction. You seem to think that if salvation is all of God(which we both agree on) then God causing someone to believe on his Son could not possibly be a part of the salvation process he designed. The problem is that based on Christ's own words as well his Apostles God has made it a part of his own process, those who are his sheep, are called by him, saved by him and they are caused by him to follow him.

Where is the "partnership between man and God" you speak of? If God regenerates and causes the belief man has no part in his salvation, thus there is no partnership.

I want to zoom in on this statement of yours for our listening audience as it strikes at the heart of your position:

it seems to me you are saying also that unless one believes the gospel message, one is not saved
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ABSOLUTELY I AM! And so did Christ:

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

I think Christ said it all here for you.

So from your own words, you believe someone can be saved without believing the Gospel, i.e. believing on Jesus Christ and his death burial and resurection. This is heresy - plain and simple, its not a matter of syntax, its not a matter of interpretation, its just plain heresy. I am not trying to mean, but I cannot sugar coat this.

I pray that God will reveal to you that believing on his Son, Jesus Christ, and accepting his death burial and resurection as atonement for our sins is the only way someone will be saved. God causes all his elect to believe, there is no partnership, it is all him regenerating and causing them to believe.

IFBReformer

IfbReformer · Sep 5, 2004

Originally posted by pinoybaptist:
To continue, if someone's redemption was finished at the cross, then when and how did belief and faith unto eternal salvation get exercised by those born before, during, and after the fact of the cross. God did not make it a requirement, or a prerequisite, to eternal salvation.

I repeat, either eternal salvation is all of God, none of man, from start (eternity past) to finish (calvary), or it is part of God, and part of man. No matter what protestations you make to the contrary, an honest scrutiny of your position is that your position is part of man, and part of God.

Every Scripture you hear about the elect hearing the voice of the Son of God you change in understanding to be hearing the voice of the Son of God through the preacher's message of the gospel".

No.

They hear the voice of the Son of God, and it is the Holy Spirit who causes their regeneration, and regeneration is the will of God, not of man, and it is intended for the elect, and the elect were redeemed by Christ apart from any participation from them.

The gospel, on the other hand, is an announcement of good news to those with an already regenerate heart, that brings their life and immortality to light (2 Timothy 1:10).

You quote John 1:12, but do not quote the next verse, just like your Arminian friends, why ? Because the next verse shows that these who received Christ were already believing before He ever came on the scene ?
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pinoybaptist,

To continue, if someone's redemption was finished at the cross, then when and how did belief and faith unto eternal salvation get exercised by those born before, during, and after the fact of the cross. God did not make it a requirement, or a prerequisite, to eternal salvation.
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So what about those before, during or after the fact of the cross? Those before the cross were only required to believe what God had revealed at the time. As Hebrews tells us the Saints of old "saw from a distance". When Christ was revealed, then they were required to believe on him, they may not have understood that what he was going to do on the cross, but they had to accept him as the Messiah.

After his death on the cross, and God supernaturally revealed the meaning his death through the Apostles, they were required to believe and accept Jesus as the Christ and Savior. They had to accept his death burial and resurection as Romans 10:9&10 clearly tells us.

Once again though, there acceptance of God's revelation before the cross or after the cross was not of their own doing, but all of God regenerating them and causing them to believe. No partnership needed, all of God.

I have show you several verses were God does make it a requirement to believe on his Son(although he fufils the requirement by causing us to believe - so it is nothing of ourselves), yet you continue to reject these several passages.

Now lets take a look at John 1:12-13

John 1:12-13
12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- 13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

Ok, where is the problem here? the second verse simply says they were born of the will of God, God choose them before the foundation of the the world to do what he said in verse 12 - to "receive him" and "believe on his name". So where is the problem?

We did not elect ourselves to be saved, thats what verse 13 is saying, God elected us to be saved, and caused us to "receive him" and "believe on his name".

IFBReformer

IfbReformer · Sep 5, 2004

Originally posted by pinoybaptist:
IFB Reformer also charged:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />
You believe regeneration does not necesarily cause belief, that is what makes your belief a false Gospel. A Gospel without belief is no gospel at all.

Click to expand...

Wrong. Read my posts very carefully, and read it for how it is written. Don't read what you want to see in them.

God chose. The Son redeemed. The Holy Spirit regenerates. Where is the faith that resulted in one's eternal salvation in this process ?

Did God choose His elect (since you say you believe in God's sovereign electing grace) based on a foreseen belief in them ? Or did He choose based entirely on His mercy.

Did the Son redeem His Father's elect based on a pre-condition that they first believe on Him ? OR did He go up on that cross to redeem them because that was His Father's will.

Does the Holy Spirit regenerate, first on a precondition that one believes ?

Apparently, your answer will all be nays.

So now, why do you want to add 'belief in the gospel message' as a precondition to their eternal salvation ?

The issue we both need to settle first is, is faith and belief a prerequisite to eternal salvation ?

Then, when we settle that, we can go to the next level, what is the role of the gospel message then, and what is the result of believing in the gospel message in the life of an elect child of God ?

Until then, you will be inconsistent with your claim of belief in the sovereignty of God in election. [/QUOTE]pinoybaptist,

God chose. The Son redeemed. The Holy Spirit regenerates. Where is the faith that resulted in one's eternal salvation in this process ?
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When the Holy Spirit regenerates he gives the faith and belief, thats what you reject. You see the Holy Spirit regenerating people, but not causing them to believe. Thats where the problem comes in.

Does the Holy Spirit regenerate, first on a precondition that one believes ?

Apparently, your answer will all be nays.

So now, why do you want to add 'belief in the gospel message' as a precondition to their eternal salvation ?
Click to expand...

As I have stated about 100 times for you, belief is not a precondition for regeneration as you try and paint me as saying - it is the RESULT of regeneration. THAT IS WHAT YOU REJECT. You believe some people will be regenerated, but not necessarily caused to believe on the name Christ.

So yes belief on the Son is a precondition to eternal life as Christ himself clearly says, but it is one that God himself fulfils by causing all his elect to belief.

IFBReformer

IfbReformer · Sep 5, 2004

Originally posted by pinoybaptist:
And here is a blatant lie on your part.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />
Read pinoybaptist own posts, and he will say it is possible for a muslim who finds the doctrines of the death burial and resurection of Christ repugnant to be one of God's elect and never turn and believe on the true Christ.

Click to expand...

I am cutting and pasting my entire post on this matter. Post #1822, made at 11:20 a.m., September 1, 2004, right above Tom Vols' post:

Thank you for your patience.

Now, to your question about your Muslim friend.

As I have already stated, among Primitive Baptists it is not our practice to point a finger at somebody and say, 'this person's soul is damned', since, obviously, (1) That is God's prerogative and no one else's, (2) We are told to judge doctrine but there is no instruction to judge one's eternal standing, and (3) except for Jesus Christ, none of the elect was present when God was writing the names of His elect in the Lamb's Book of Life.

Your friend has been brought under the hearing of the gospel, and God has said His word will not return to Him void. It is now up to God to work in your friend's heart to will and to do of His good pleasure.

If he is one of God's elect, then His conversion process will continue, but it will be in God's own timetable, God's own strategies, and not ours. If he is not one of God's own, then there is one that judgeth him, the word that Jesus has spoken, it will judge him.

Among the PB's our belief is that those elect who have not, will not, and have never been brought under the hearing of the gospel message in their lifetime will close their eyes here on earth and open their eyes in heaven, since they have all been brought under the redeeming blood of Christ. There are no corrections in heaven, because the Bible says, 'the former things will no longer be remembered'.

Salvation and regeneration is independent of any means. It is all of God.
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Is your Muslim friend dead already ? If yes, then leave that in the hands of God. If not, then let God do His work, but, it is not up to you, me, or anyone to judge him unsaved simply because he did not believe our testimony. How do you know he never will ? [/QUOTE]Here is the simple answer to your question. I do not know if he will never believe before he dies. If he never believes before he dies then he proves he was never one of God's elect, because all of God's elect he regenerates and causes to believe on his Son.

In Christ's own words, if this man dies having rejected Christ:

John 3:18
... but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

If he does not believe by the time he dies then he stands condemned and it proves he was never one of God's elect.

Oh and by the way, there is no lie on my part, you just requoted the very statement that supports what I said about your belief:

Among the PB's our belief is that those elect who have not, will not, and have never been brought under the hearing of the gospel message in their lifetime will close their eyes here on earth and open their eyes in heaven, since they have all been brought under the redeeming blood of Christ. There are no corrections in heaven, because the Bible says, 'the former things will no longer be remembered'.
Click to expand...

How is it possible according to the New Testament that some "elect who have not, will not, and have never been brought under the hearing of the gospel message in their lifetime will close their eyes here on earth and open their eyes in heaven". This statement together with the situation I painted with the muslim, implied that a muslim could die(possible be one of the elect) "will not" accept the Gospel message in his lifetime, yet be saved.

If he is one of the elect, God will cause him to believe before he his death.

IFBReformer

BibleMaMa · Sep 6, 2004

I agree with most points... I attend an IFB church that I feel stays true to the Bible doctrine.

pinoybaptist · Sep 6, 2004

IFB REFORMER asked:

How is it possible according to the New Testament that some "elect who have not, will not, and have never been brought under the hearing of the gospel message in their lifetime will close their eyes here on earth and open their eyes in heaven".

Click to expand...

Because:

The Lord's hand is not shortened that it cannot save.

Your theology and Calvinism limits the ability of the Lord to reach and regenerate His people apart from the ability of a preacher to [1] obey the 'great commission', and [2] travel to the uttermost parts of the earth;

Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. (Romans 8:33) - This statement does not only imply that no sin can ever be imputed against the elect since it is the Almighty Himself who justified them, but, that no one claiming to be a child of God, as you claim to be, can ever charge one cannot be possibly saved unless one hears and obeys the gospel message preached thru a human voice;

This statement together with the situation I painted with the muslim, implied that a muslim could die(possible be one of the elect) "will not" accept the Gospel message in his lifetime, yet be saved.

Click to expand...

Oh, so now, you're saying your Muslim 'friend' is non-existent, after all ? Again, show by context and scripture, how accepting the gospel message is directly related to one's eternal salvation ?

If he is one of the elect, God will cause him to believe before he his death.

Click to expand...

God will regenerate him, cause him to believe that there is a God in heaven who saves sinners, cause him to realize he is a sinner like everyone else and is in need of mercy from the true God, cause him to worship the one and true God, and IF a gospel preacher comes to his locality he may be drawn of God to Christ, and therefrom know Christ, and believe gospel instruction.

But you cannot consign anyone to hell and damnation simply because they did not believe your gospel preaching while in your presence and in your lifetime. Do you know they never will ?

And how in the world do you have the boldness and temerity to demand that all elect children of God are elect only if they listen to the gospel when even the Arminians themselves are having a hard time making people 'accept' Jesus considering the bad examples given by most Christians and churches today ?

Again, the difference between you and me is you believe in gospel regeneration. I don't. I believe it is the Holy Spirit who regenerates, it is the Holy Spirit who effectually calls, not you, not Spurgeon, not Joel Osteen, not John Hagee, not your pastors, not David Livingstone, not Adoniram Judson, certainly not Paul or Peter and most certainly not the Primitive Baptists.

Now, you gave a hypothetical Muslim friend, let me give you an actual and historical example.

Ferdinand Magellan claims to have 'discovered' the Philippines and converted my countrymen to 'Christianity'.

But long before he came to the Philippines, there are those among my countrymen who believed that there is one God and His name is Bathala (in our language), and that He created all men and women from two, named Malakas (Strong) and Maganda (Beautiful).

They believed that Bathala is a holy God, and they should conduct their affairs on earth according to the desires and holiness of Bathala.

You're a scholar ? Research it yourself, you've got the internet in front of you.

Now, with such a set of values and spiritual beliefs, will you tell God it is impossible for Him to reach out to those who are His own and regenerate them ?

pinoybaptist · Sep 6, 2004

God will, without a doubt effectually call His children wherever they are, and many will also hear the gospel call, but not all. That is how it has always been, unless you are saying that in the Old Testament times God was a God only of the Middle East (I think I posted this somewhere, but, as usual those of your persuasion refuse to address that issue), because that is where He decided to reveal Himself.

And unless you are saying that God is God only, and Judge and Savior only, wherever He chooses to reveal Himself, in the Bible's case, in Israel and the surrounding nations.

But, if you accept the Bible's statement that God is God of all creation, and that He has His people all over the earth, then you will have no problem in realizing and accepting that He eternally saves His own independent of any preaching or gospel preacher, and of any written or spoken word.

IF you truly believe God is sovereign, then you will also understand that His sovereignty includes independence from any human ability and He will do what He will do when and how He pleases.

pinoybaptist · Sep 6, 2004

Furthermore, in one of your posts you reasoned that there is no way anyone can ever escape hearing the gospel being preached because of modern advances like the radio, the TV, media, the internet, etc., etc.

Maybe.

The questions are:

How do you know that everyone who has these modern amenities use them to read, hear, or learn anything pertaining to the gospel or to the spirit;

How sure are you that every 'gospel' being preached is indeed the Biblical gospel;

If you will admit that not every gospel being preached is the Biblical gospel, then, are you going to say that there are none who are saved among those who have heard and accepted whatever gospel happened to first come their way ?

If you say that, then what you are saying is that the only way they can truly be saved is if they hear your gospel. Is that it ? It is only IFB Reformer who has the true gospel that eternally saves, to the exclusion of all others ?

If you say no, then you have no other recourse except to admit that God eternally saves His own not thru any gospel but thru the shed blood of Jesus Christ, and that only, and their creed plays no part in their eternal salvation at all.

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