N-C's Really Agree With Much of Calvinism

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Rippon, Apr 14, 2008.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,407
    Likes Received:
    328
    There are a number of folks here who maintain that the Westminster Confession of Faith is filled with errors . One poster doesn't believe there is any biblical truth in the Institutes of the Christian Religion by John Calvin .

    It is my contention that some ill-informed ( giving them the benefit of doubt ) people are quite mistaken . I sincerely think that 51%--65% of the WCoF as well as Calvin's Institutes are in harmony with most who do not hold Calvinistic convictions .They just have not taken the time to read before making wild charges .

    What do you Calvinists and non-Cals think ?
     
  2. skypair

    skypair
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    Rip,

    I think you are right to this extent -- when it comes to salvation, we all agree it is faith alone in Christ alone.

    I was watching John Ankerburg's show where R.C. Sproul gave a very impassioned presentation of the way to salvation as distinguished from Catholicism (re: the topic was the ECT document). I agreed with all but one word of what he said (he said "repent from sin" whereas I would say "repent of self") but he made it clear that the individual has to do this (repent towards God).

    He didn't embellish his presentation with "election" or predestination or "sovereignty" or TULIP... And that's as it should be. Surely none of those has the slightest bearing on how to be saved. And, of course, I believe that to study any of those from the Calvinist perspective after one is saved is not particularly forward-looking nor helpful either.

    The real problem any of us should have if we all agree on "sola fide, sola Christ" is that something would stop anyone else from receiving salvation. One such notion that comes to mind is the idea that saving faith is passive. That WE don't personally have to "choose" or "do" anything in order to receive salvation.

    The Jews of OT Israel came to believe they were "elect" and had salvation sowed up through their sacrifices and observance of the law. What if Christianity set up a similar system that very much depended on a false "election" premise?

    skypair
     
    #2 skypair, Apr 15, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 15, 2008
  3. David Lamb

    David Lamb
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2006
    Messages:
    2,982
    Likes Received:
    0
    It seems to me that at least some of the attributes many non-Calvinists ascribe to Calvinism are in fact hypercalvinism. I think I would agree with your thoughts on this Rippon.
     
  4. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,407
    Likes Received:
    328
    There are 32 chapters in the Westminster Confession of Faith . I don't think most non-Cals here would object in the least with the first 2 chapters : "Of The Holy Scripture" and "Of God , and Of The Holy Trinity" .

    Chapter 4 deals with "Of Creation" . Here is the opening head : "It pleased God the Father, Son , and Holy Ghost , for the manifestation of the glory of his eternal power , wisdom , and goodness , in the beginning , to create , or make of nothing , the world , and all things therein , whether visible or invisible , in the space of six days , and all very good ."

    section #2 : " After God had made all other creatures , he created man , male and female , with reasonable and immortal souls , endued with knowledge , righteousness , and true holiness after his own image , having the law of God written in their hearts , and power to fulfill it ; and yet under a possibility of transgressing , being left to the liberty of their own will , which was subject to change . Beside this law written in their hearts , they received a command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil ; which while they kept , they were happy in their communion with God , and dominion over the creatures ."

    Again , I see no possible disagreement that the folks from the other side would have in these chapters .

    I will continue on in the future with step-by-step citations . If any non-Cals object to any wording of the WCoF with what I cite please tell me why .

    Anyone else is welcome to do some citing of their own . Remember , I said that non-Cals would find themselves in harmony with 51%-- 65% of this famous document which summarizes major Bible doctrines . It does not seek to supplant the Bible -- only to capsulize major doctrines . I will not provide the scriptural passages it uses to substantiate its positions .It would be time-consuming .

    I will not post anything on "God's Eternal Decree and "Effectual Calling" and other subjects with which non-Cals would have difficulty .
     
  5. Dale-c

    Dale-c
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2006
    Messages:
    4,145
    Likes Received:
    0
    Rip, I think you are right.
    But many use the term "doctrines of man" because it sounds good.
     
  6. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,407
    Likes Received:
    328
    As time permits I will do some more quoting from the WCoF . Of course the Baptist Confession of 1689 would bring our non-Cal friends to somehere near 65%-- 75% agreement .
     
  7. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,407
    Likes Received:
    328
    Chapter 8 : "Of Christ The Mediator"

    There are 8 sections in this chapter . Four of them are compatible with a non-cal view . So 50% of this one I can put on their tally .

    2. The Son of God , the second person in the Trinity , being very and eternal God , of one substance , and equal with the Father , did , when the fullness of time was come , take upon him man's nature , with all the essential properties and common infirmities thereof , yet without sin ; being conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost , in the womb of the Virgin Mary , of her substance . So that two whole , perfect , and distinct natures , the Godhead and the manhood , were inseparably joined together in one person , without conversion , composition , or confusion . Which person is very God and very man , yet one Christ , the only Mediator between God and man .

    3. The Lord Jesus , in his human nature thus united to the divine , was sanctified and annointed with the Holy Spirit above measure ; having in him all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge ; in whom it pleased the Father that all fulness should dwell : to the end , that being holy , harmless , undefiled , and full of grace and truth , he might be throughly furnished to execute the office of a Mediator and Surety . Which office he took not unto himself , but was thereunto called by his Father ; who put all power and judgment into his hand , and gave him commandment to execute the same .

    4. This office the Lord Jesus did most willingly undertake ; which that he may discharge , he was made under the law , and did perfectly fulfill it ; endured most grievous torments immediately in his soul , and most painful sufferings in his body ; was crucified , and died ; was buried , and remained under the power of death , yet saw no corruption . On the third day he arose from the dead , with the same body in which he suffered ; with which also he ascended into heaven , and there sitteth at the right hand of his Father , making intercession ; and shall return to judge men and angels at the end of the world .

    7. Christ in the work of mediation , acteth according to both natures ; by each nature doing that which is proper to itself : yet , by reason of the unity of the person , that which is proper to one nature is sometimes in scripture attributed to the person denominated by the other nature .
     
  8. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,407
    Likes Received:
    328
    Chapter 9 : "Of Free Will"

    Have I surprised anyone with this ? This chapter has five headings . The first two would be conducive to a non-Cal view .

    1. God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty , that it is neither forced , nor by any absolute necessity of nature determined , to good or evil .

    2. Man , in his state of innocency , had freedom and power to will and to do that which is good and well-pleasing to God ; but yet mutably , so that he might fall from it .
     
  9. Tom Bryant

    Tom Bryant
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    4,439
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think there are more areas of agreement than there are disagreement. It is in our sinful nature to make those who disagree with us out to be wrong and dangerous to Biblical beliefs. I am a non-cal not because I was taught that, but because I don't think it is what the Bible teaches. But too many good men who loves Jesus and His Word believe it for me to think they're hairy-tics! :laugh: And I would expect the same kind of respect from Calvinists.

    Personally, I suspect that the people who go scream the loudest from either side are the most insecure about their positions. Sort of like the preacher who wrote in the margin of his notes "LOGIC WEAK, YELL LOUD"
     
  10. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    8,123
    Likes Received:
    1
    :laugh: :laugh: My wife is looking at me real funny, Tom Bryant. Like, "what's he laughing out loud about all alone by himself in front of that laptop or notebook or whatchacall it ?":laugh:
     
  11. skypair

    skypair
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    Shouldn't we be considering our agreement using the BIBLE, not the WC, rip??? :1_grouphug:

    Do you find anything wrong with Sproul's "salvation" presentation as I reported it?

    skypair
     
  12. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,407
    Likes Received:
    328
    Chapter 11: "Of Saving Faith"

    I agree with so much of the WCoF it is hard not to quote other sections that are so uplifting and biblical . But I have to refrain and cite only those sections with which most non-Cals would have no problem .

    Section 3: This faith is different in degrees , weak or strong ; may be often and many ways assailed and weakened , but gets the victory ; growing up in many to the attainment of a full assurance through Christ , who is both the author and finisher of our faith .

    Correction : This is Chapter 14 , not 11 .
     
    #12 Rippon, Apr 16, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 16, 2008
  13. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,407
    Likes Received:
    328
    Chapter 15 : "Of Repentance Unto Life"

    There are six sections in this chapter . The last four should line-up with those who are not Reformed .

    3. Although repentance be not to be rested in , as any satisfaction for sin , or any cause of the pardon thereof , which is the act of God's free grace in Christ ; yet it is of such necessity to all sinners , that none may expect pardon without it .

    4. As there is no sin so small but it deserves damnation ; so there is no sin so great that it can bring damnation upon those who truly repent .

    5. Men ought not to content themselves with a general repentance , but it is every man's duty to endeavour to repent of his particular sins particularly .

    6. As every man is bound to make private confession of his sins to God , praying for the pardon thereof ; upon which , and the forsaking of them , he shall find mercy ; so he that scandalizeth his brother , or the church of Christ , ought to be willing , by a private or publick confession and sorrow for his sin , to declare his repentance to those that are offended ; who are thereupon to be reconciled to him , and in love to receive him .
     
    #13 Rippon, Apr 16, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 16, 2008
  14. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,407
    Likes Received:
    328
    Chapter 11:"Of Justification"

    No , you are not seeing double . I made a mistake earlier which I noted . The arrangement of the WCoF which I am following is by G.I. Williamson . He identifies the proper sections , but has them in a different order.

    You may be surprised that I am including one of the six sections on this hot potato of a topic -- but just give it a fair reading and maybe you'll agree that it is agreeable with your view .

    2. Faith , thus receiving and resting on Christ and his righteousness , is the alone instrument of justification ; yet is it not alone in the person justified , but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces , and is no dead faith , but worketh by love .
     
  15. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,407
    Likes Received:
    328
    Chapter 13 : "Of Sanctification"

    This chpter has three headings . The latter two would be acceptable to non-Cals in my estimation .

    2. This sanctification is throughout in the whole man , yet imperfect in this life ; there abideth still some remnants of corruption in every part : whence ariseth a continual and irreconcilable war ; the flesh lusting against the Spirit , and the Spirit against the flesh .

    3. In which war , although the remaining corruption for a time may much prevail yet , through the continual supply of strength from the sanctifying Spirit of Christ , the regenerate part doth overcome : and so the saints grow in grace , perfecting holiness in the fear of God .
     
  16. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,407
    Likes Received:
    328
    Those of you who are not Calvinists may lodge your complaints here if you disagree with any of the Westminster Confession of Faith statements which I have provided on this thread to-date .

    I will not post any more from that document until Monday or Tuesday my time . So this gives any of you an opportunity to weigh-in with comments both positive and negative .
     
  17. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,407
    Likes Received:
    328
    Chapter 16 : "Of Good Works" is entirely compatible with with the orientation of non-Calvinists . It has seven sections . Rack up another one .
     
  18. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,407
    Likes Received:
    328
    Chapter 17 : "Of The Perseverance Of The Saints"

    It's a shame that I can't quote the first two propositions for they are entirely biblical -- hence unacceptable to non-Cals . Section three would meet with their approval though .

    3. Neverthless they may , through the temtation of Satan and of the world , the prevalency of corruption remaining in them , and the neglect of the means of their preservation , fall into grievous sins ; and for a time continue therein : whereby they incur God's displeasure , and grieve his Holy Spirit ; come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts ; have their hearts hardened , and their consciences wounded ; hurt and scandalize others , and bring temporal judgments upon themselves .
     
  19. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,407
    Likes Received:
    328
    Chapter 18 : "Of Assurance Of Grace And Salvation" has four parts . All of them are non-Cal tested and approved .:laugh:
     
  20. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,407
    Likes Received:
    328
    Chapter 19 :"Of The Law Of God"

    There are seven heads here . Two of them might be acceptable to those of a non-calvinistic persuasion .

    2. This law , after the fall , continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness ; and , as such , was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in ten commandments , and written in two tables ; the first four commandments containing our duty towards God , and the other six our duty to man .

    7. Neither are the aforementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the gospel , but do sweetly comply with it ; the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely and cheerfully which the will of God revealed in the law requireth to be done .
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Loading...