Nation of Christians no more???

I understand your point. Your point is quite correct for the countries which have much less freedom of religion than U.S. has. But U.S. have achieved more than that, and the deterioration from it means worse situation for everyone. Again I mentioned U.S. was founded upon Christian Faith.

For example, at the moment, George Bush may be trying to embrace the terrorists into the parliament of Israel (http://www.israelnationalradio.com/#tamar)

But should they allow the terrorists to pray in the parliament?
Or in order for US to be perfect in Religious freedom, should they invite the Terrorists to pray in the Congress? What about inviting Moonies ?

Could anyone imagine such country as U.S. 500 years ago when Columbus came to West Indies? Why should we accept the deterioration of the Freedom of Truth?
Can you insist on the Freedom of Religion which you are claiming, in the country of Iran and in Saudi Arabia? You claim there first, then you will realize what I mean. I lived in Saudi Arabia for 2 years and know what the freedom means.

I told you the Style of God's working, not the dictatorship or oppression but the Freedom plus Appealing. I don't claim the oppression but the preaching based on the Spirit of Founding Fathers. Why do they come to U.S. and try to change the spiritual system and should the Christians tolerate them? Is it because our Christianity is worse than their religion ? Is it because we find our Christian forefathers were wrong?

 

No one claims that Saudi and Iran have freedom of religion, but we do. So we really believe it or not? Is it only for Christians?

I am unaware of this term "Freedom of Truth." Truth is always free, no matter what the government.

Plus, this chap was hardly a Hindu terrorist.

 

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

 

Why are the Muslims and Hindus coming to U.S? Is it because they find US is a better country? Then do they know that US was founded by the Chrsitian Forefathers, based on the Christian belief?
What if we let them know about it?

Do you think we should invite the Muslim Imams to pray to Allah?
Do you want to invite Al-Sadhr ?
How do you distinguish the Terrorist Imams from the Peaceful Imams?
Muslims would think some Terrorist Imams are the genuine and patriotic Imams, and the peaceful Imams are the traitor imams.

Would you like to invite someone like Khomeini, the late Iranian Islam leader to pray for U.S.?

How can you distinguish between Peaceful Islam and Teror Islam?

You may sound like allowing the freedom of Religion. However, there is a Way for that, and the Way for the Freedom is available only in the True Christianity.

If you start to invite pagan religion, you may of course invite Gay pastors too. Then what about the Polygamists? Polygamy may find more biblical ground than the Gay marriage.

Buddism do not pursue the Violence but they drive the people to the Poverty thru laziness.

Hinduism tolerated the Caste, Domestic Violence, violence and torturing against the other religion. Let them resolve those problems first. Why couldn't they help hundreds of millions of people under the poverty ? Why is their religion useless there?

Do you think US Congress should invite the sorcerers and witches as well?
What is your criteria for the selection?

Once you deviate from the Way, you will find tremendous problems with Chaos.

Repeatedly I told you the Style of God's Working is not forcing, but appealing the people with the Freedom, and the country of US was built upon the foundation of Christian Faith, which is known to any immigrants. If they don't like it, they have the freedom to leave any time.

 

You only want freedom for Christians - you do not want real freedom.

God is more powerful than any of these false teachers and false religions.

Does is bother you that Jews, Mormons, and Catholics pray before the Senate?

If we don't like the First Amendment lets repeal it.

 

Yes. I can still remember the first time a Catholic prayed before the Senate. There was a big uproar about that too, but at least he was praying to the right God.

 

We must admit that the complete and full freedom can be available only when the Lord comes to this world again.

Until that time, each country has the responsibility and the freedom for the government, and the Freedom founded upon the Christian Faith was and is enough, which shouldn't be given away, considering the Fore-Fathers endeavors.

Repeatedly you have not answered my questions. Why do the heathen believers live so poor under the dictatorship or under the violence? Why can't they improve their own situation?

Are they because of the natural resources? There are plenty of countries which have no resources but live far better than the Hindu country or Muslim countries. Why are they so blinded not to see the difference?

What [in the world] are their gods doing now? are their gods studying how to cause Terrors or Poverty all the time?

Invite those guys and ask them about it first, then decide whether you should allow them to pray their gods.

[Moderator warning: Post was edited to remove inappropriate language. Take greater care when posting in the future.]

 

So do you really think that only born again evangelical preachers should be permitted to open the Senate in prayer?

BTW, I'm not so sure that Rome's god who requires works in the same as my God of Grace. I don't pray to Rome's god.

 

I apologise, but I really don't understand your question or what it has to do with a Hindu praying to open the Senate.

I believe that most people come to America because of freedom. Men yearn to be free and we have freedom, thats why I hate to see freedoms limited in our wonderful country.

 

Why not ban all religious activity in a public office, which is for the citizenry, and not just for Christians of a particular stripe.

Not all the Founding Fathers were Christians. Most were Deists, but not evangelical, fundamental Christians.

Government and law were essentialy based on British law and parliament, and not on the Bible.

If all are not free, then none are free. We all know what happened in Germany when one religion was denied freedom!

Cheers,

Jim

 

1. Question :

Do you think we should allow the Al Sadhr the Shiite Imam behind the Terrors in Iraq should be allowed to pray?

If not, why should he not be offered the freedom?

How can you distinguish between peaceful Imams and Terror imams?

Do you think the gay pastors should pray for the nation? If not, why? Do you think Polygamists should be allowed to pray for US? Why not?

2. If Muslims and Hindus came to US for the Freedom, it means that they are happy with the Christian leadership and with the fact that the country was built upon the Christian Faith and Christian Freedom. Why do you think we should allow them to return to their own paganism from which they came? Didn't they admit that they would accept the Christian leadership when they were eager to come to US? What if they return to their own religion if they find no freedom here?

 

C4K,

For the great Freedom of US, who do you think should be allowed to pray at the Congress or at any government offices?

1) Al Sadhr, Shiite Imam

2) Khomeini, Iranian Muslim Leader

3) Muhammad Abbas of PLO
4) Hezbollah Imam
5) Hamas Imam
6) Taleban Imam
7) Hindu Guru
8) Buddhist Monks
9) Dalai Rama
9) gay pastors
10) Polygamy pastors and Mormon pastors
11) Japanese Shinto monks.
12) Moonies ( nothing but the sex-religion)
13)Sorcerers and Witchcrafts
14) diviners
15) Scientologists
16) Mormons.

Based on your Freedom, please explain to me why should they be denied the freedom to select the leaders for their own prayer?

 

1) if he is known terrorist then of course he should not be allowed to pray before Congress - he should be arrested

2) What Christian leadership in America?? This is a secular state, of course they did not agree to submit to Christian leadership. America has freedom of religion. Do you remember that inconvenient little truth? They are of course free to be pagans in America. I was an American pagan until I got saved in 1974. They should be free to observe their religion in America - thats what America is all about.

 

What is the definition of " known terrorist"? So, are the unknown terrorists allowed? Only the famous terrorists are to be prohibited?

I asked you if someone like Kohmeini can pray for the nation of US?
What about the gay priests or gay pastors?
Do you accept the Polygamy pastors?
This is the country of freedom, why shouldn't someone like Jim Jones or Dalai Rama be allowed to pray?
Would you accept Buddhists, Taoists, Shinto monks to pray for the nation?

I told you US was built upon the faith of Christians and they reflected the Christian spirit everywhere it is possible. That's why you could have the opportunity to hear about the Christianity then were led to Christ. It was not because the pagans were allowed to pray to their gods.
Why don't you allow all the religion gather together and pray in turn? Why do you limit the freedom to Christian, Catholic, Hindu? It is not the true sense of freedom. If you don't understand the spirit of Christian leaders at the time of founding US, please check wallbuilders.com again.

Why don't you allow all the religions of the world including Zoroaster, Bahaii, JW, Mormons, Moonies, Shinto, Taoists, Confucianists, Buddhists, sorcerers, witches, American Indians, etc?

My ground is solid, which is based on the Foundation of US and I believe that we have to continue to reflect it as much as possible. You didn't answer my question, Were the Christian Fore-Fathers who founded U.S. wrong when they reflected Christian Faith in the government system and in the law?

 

They established a secular government with a Constitution that knowingly left God out. Where is Christian Faith established in the government system and in law. Can you show me one thing in the Constitution that reflects Christian faith? Can you show me one law that favours Christians? Our brilliant forefathers, while several were believers, were wise enough to leave God out of government. Why do men today try to drag Him back in.


I don't care who prays to open the Senate. It is a free country with religious liberty. How many of those senators they are praying before do you think are truly saved with a desire to serve God. Does it matter who prays before a body who continues to allow the murder of innocent children. The Senate is not a Christian body, it is not a church service. Why does it matter who prays?

Did you know people get saved all over the world, not just in America?

 

BTW Eliyahu,

You never answered my question. Does it bother you that Jews, Mormons, and Catholics pray before the Senate?

 

Yes, I take that as a wrong practice, though I don't know the details of such. Catholics were not allowed so for a long time, and it is only the recent decades that US had the diplomatic relationship with Vatican. Once the U.S. started to swerve from the Path, they continue to go astray from it farther.

You didn't answer me about whether any of the followings shouldn't be allowed to pray in the Congress.

1) Al Sadhr, Shiite Imam
2) Khomeini, Iranian Muslim Leader
3) Muhammad Abbas of PLO
4) Hezbollah Imam
5) Hamas Imam
6) Taleban Imam
7) Hindu Guru
8) Buddhist Monks
9) Dalai Rama
9) gay pastors
10) Polygamy pastors and Mormon pastors
11) Japanese Shinto monks.
12) Moonies ( nothing but the sex-religion)
13)Sorcerers and Witchcrafts
14) diviners
15) Scientologists
16) Mormons.
17) Harry Porter Witches if any.

If any of the above should not be permitted to pray in the Senate or in the Congress, what is the reason for it, and who can decide ?

 

I already told you that you are quite correct when we completely give up the spirit of Christian Forefathers who founded the U.S, like Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, George Washington, etc.

Let me show you some excerpts:

Before the Independence in 1776, the Declaration of Rights in Virginia gave a great impact on the Independence, here is the Bill of Right in Virginia

[FONT=바탕]16. That Religion, or the duty which we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and, therefore, all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience; and that it is the mutual duty of all to practise Christian forbearance, love, and charity, towards each other.[/FONT]
[FONT=바탕] [/FONT]
[FONT=&#48148]http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/v1ch1s3.html[/FONT]
[FONT=&#48148][/FONT]
[FONT=&#48148][/FONT]
[FONT=&#48148]Where was the Hindu god when U.S. was established? [/FONT]
[FONT=&#48148]What did the Hindu god do when US people struggled for the independence?[/FONT]
[FONT=&#48148][/FONT]
[FONT=&#48148][/FONT]
[FONT=&#48148]The basic components of US Constitution are the Freedom and Equal Rights of the People, and the Power comes from the People.[/FONT]
[FONT=&#48148]Where did they get this from?[/FONT]
[FONT=&#48148][/FONT]
[FONT=&#48148]Did they learn them from the Hierarchy of Catholic? Did they learn the Equality from Hinduists Caste system? Or Muslim Imams taught the Freedom of the Faith?[/FONT]
[FONT=&#48148][/FONT]
[FONT=&#48148]I told you that the congress members studied the Bible for more than 3 hours every day![/FONT]
[FONT=&#48148]
Where did they learn the separation of the three powers, Admin, Legislature, Judicial system?

They studied and found it here:

22 For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us. ( Is 33)

What was Allah doing at that time?

Could they find anything like that in their Hindu writings?

Why couldn't they establish the Democracy in Muslim countries? Even in India before they learn from Britain?[/FONT]

Does any other religion than the True Christianity teach the Freedom and Equal Rights? As far as I know, the Word " Freedom and Equality in the presence of God" came only from Christianity. I have never heard any other religion teaching about the Freedom and Equality. Even in Catholic, they teach the separation between Clergy and the Laypeople. Hinduists support the Caste.

One of the reasons why Romans rejected Christianity was because Christians called the Slaves " Brothers and Sisters", which was absolutley immoral to their eyes.
Which religion was practicing such faith, other than Christianity? Saudi Arabian Kings?

 

Here are some more excerpts of the Christian Fore-Fathers who founded US.

Quote:

In fact, prayers in Jesus’ name have been offered at all sorts of legislative meetings and public gatherings for hundreds of years and no court has ever before decided that this practice might be governmental coercion or an establishment of a state religion.

http://www.christianlaw.org/newsletter/articles/public_prayer.html

We find that this was the text chosen by the Pastor Thomas Hooker, May 31,​

1638, for a lecture leading the way to the First written constitution in America—​

that of Connecticut. Excerpts from the Fundamental Orders of Connecticut can be​

found on pages 253–257 of Christian History. On page 250 of Christian History can​

be found Dr. Hooker’s development of the political principles of representative

government taken from the text in Deuteronomy:

I “That the choice of public magistrates belongs unto the people by God’s own
allowance.
II “The privilege of election which belongs unto the people, therefore, must
not be exercised according to their humors, but according to the blessed will​

​

and law of God.

http://www.face.net/files/Your%20Unique%20Role/T_Lp241_249.pdf

The strength of America’s liberty is the result of the faith of America’s first settlers, and later, our founding fathers; every religion has a form of government, and America’s Constitutional Republic is the Christian form of government.

http://www.face.net/204003.ihtml


1791 Massachusetts Thanksgiving Proclamation

http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=42

By the President of the United States of America ​

A PROCLAMATION​

AS the safety and prosperity of nations ultimately and essentially depend on the protection and blessing of Almighty God; and the national acknowledgment of this truth is not only an indispensable duty which the people owe to Him,
but a duty whose natural influence is favorable to the promotion of that morality and piety, without which social happiness cannot exist, nor the blessings of a free government be enjoyed; and as this duty, at all times incumbent, is so especially in seasons of difficulty and of danger, when existing or threatening calamities, the just judgments of God against prevalent iniquity are a loud call to repentance and reformation; and as the United States of America are at present placed in a hazardous and afflictive situation, by the unfriendly disposition, conduct and demands of a foreign power, evinced by repeated refusals to receive our messengers of reconciliation and peace, by depredations on our commerce, and the infliction of injuries on very many of our fellow citizens, while engaged in their lawful business on the seas: Under these considerations it has appeared to me that the duty of imploring the mercy and benediction of Heaven on our country, demands at this time a special attention from its inhabitants.
I HAVE therefore thought it fit to recommend, that Wednesday, the 9th day of May next be observed throughout the United States, as a day of Solemn Humiliation, Fasting and Prayer; That the citizens of these states, abstaining on that day from their customary worldly occupations, offer their devout addresses to the Father of Mercies, agreeably to those forms or methods which they have severally adopted as the most suitable and becoming: That all religious congregations do, with the deepest humility, acknowledge before GOD the manifold sins and transgressions with which we are justly chargeable as individuals and as a nation; beseeching him, at the same time, of his infinite Grace, through the Redeemer of the world, freely to remit all our offences, and to incline us, by his holy spirit, to that sincere repentance and reformation which may afford us reason to hope for his inestimable favor and heavenly benediction; That it be made the subject of particular and earnest supplication, that our country may be protected from all the dangers which threaten it; that our civil and religious privileges may be preserved inviolate, and perpetuated to the latest generations; that our public councils and magistrates may be especially enlightened and directed at this critical period; that the American people may be united in those bonds of amity and mutual confidence, and inspired with that vigor and fortitude by which they have in times past been so highly distinguished, and by which they have obtained such invaluable advantages: That the health of the inhabitants of our land may be preserved, and their agriculture, commerce, fisheries, arts and manufactures be blessed and prospered: That the principles of genuine piety and sound morality may influence the minds and govern the lives of every description of our citizens; and that the blessings of peace, freedom, and pure religion, may be speedily extended to all the nations of the earth.
And finally I recommend, that on the said day; the duties of humiliation and prayer be accompanied by fervent Thanksgiving to the bestower of every good gift, not only for having hitherto protected and preserved the people of these United States in the independent enjoyment of their religious and civil freedom, but also for having prospered them in a wonderful progress of population, and for conferring on them many and great favours conducive to the happiness and prosperity of a nation.
Given under my hand and seal of the United States of America, at Philadelphia, this twenty-third day of March, in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and ninety-eight, and of the Independence of the said States the twenty-second.

JOHN ADAMS​

By the President,
TIMOTHY PICKERING, Secretary of State

http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=44

 

I am not going to stand here and be shouted at.

I already told you I don't care who prays in the Senate since it is not a Christian organisation. This is a free country. If people can pray in Jesus name in a free country they can to whomever else they want. This is what makes American great. It is clear that you think freedom of religion is only for evangelical Christians.

I also am fully aware of the Christian ethos of some forefathers, but you showed me nothing in the Constitution or law that established a Christian government. You never proved to me that Congress had three hour Bible studies everyday. No one will deny that America has lost her Christian ethos, but that is not the Senate's fault. These are the "dangers" of living in a free country. Maybe we Christians can't handle true freedom, but want some kind of favoured status?

You keep trying to prove that Christianity is superior. That is a moot point, of course it, but the issue is that our nation is free, and that freedom gives people the right to not choose our way. The framers left God out of the Constitution to guarantee that right.

However, I am not a child to be shouted at. If we can't carry on a civil conversation I am forced to leave the debate.