Need BIG help on this.

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Fishnbread, Jan 4, 2005.

  1. Fishnbread

    Fishnbread
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    I have a friend that's new in Christ, and he has cousin that is a Muslim and nearly every time he gets around my friend he starts attacking his beliefs by saying things like, How do you know the Bible is real. And so just want to know what kind of answers can I give my friend that can freeze his cousins sinful attacks, and possibly guide this lost soul to Jesus.
     
  2. donnA

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    Faith.
    He kows the bible is true based on faith given by God Himself.
    He doesn't have to explain, or prove anything to anyone. And no mattwr what he says he will only convince anyone of the truth when God Himself reveals to his friend or anyone else what the truth is.
    He beleives becasue of faith, now he has to live that faith, and live it faithfully. No argument ove scripture, or whats true, let God convince, and use him to show it.
     
  3. swaimj

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    Faith is a good answer, but "faith" must have a proper object. I would recommend Erwin Lutzer's book Seven Reasons Why You Can Trust Your Bible. The book is concise and written in layman's terms. You can get it on-line from any of the major on-line bookstores (even secular ones) for about $12-13 bucks.
     
  4. donnA

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    Faith does have an object.
    We call Him God.
     
  5. swaimj

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    donnA, I hesitate to engage you on this here because it may be considered hi-jacking the thread and it will not contribute to answering the original question. I'm gonna drop the subject.
     
  6. GeneMBridges

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    donnA,

    The problem with your reasoning is that if you say that your confidence that the Bible is God's Word is based SOLELY on faith, to a Muslim, a Muslim is going to cancel out your argument because Muslims actually say the exact same thing about their conviction that the Qu'ran is God's Word.

    Ultimately, appealing to faith works only as an intramural way to affirm your convictions to other Christians when it comes to such matters. When we appeal to faith among ourselves, we are also saying we share a conviction and certain common principles, so that works. However, to an outsider, that is like saying, "The Bible is true, because it says so." That is circular logic.

    Logic and faith are complementary processes. Christian faith is ultimately rational and logical, not anti-rational or illogical. Our faith rests on historical claims. Since logic is the process of sound thinking, we know that, since God thinks, He thinks logically. He is perfect, we are imperfect. Logic is only as good as it user, but, ultimately truth does not contradict itself and is not circular. One can use logic to conclude that God exists without using circular means. One can reason the historicity of the New Testament, particularly the gospels. One can then move to an affirmation about the veracity of the resurrection accounts, then the claims of Jesus about Himself, that Jesus is Lord, and that His claims about the OT are true, and there are claims He makes that are exegetically true of the NT being the Word of God. Using the criterion of the persons at the Council of Nicea we can provide an objective basis for the canon of Scripture. Yes, we do include the internal testimony of the Holy Spirit, and our own faith, but that is, by definition, an experiential argument. We must grow beyond that if we are to dialogue with persons of other religions that attack our beliefs, or else we simply have a competing faith claim with no real evidence.

    This is why we do apologetics. Faith is okay, but not when it comes to a competing truth claim. True, only God can change another person's heart, but, at the same time, we are explicitly told to be ready to give an answer when confronted.


    I'm really tired tonight, so I'm going to simply link Fishnbread to a couple places that can help him apologetically.

    On the Bible, look here:

    http://www.carm.org/bible.htm

    Also on Islam, look here:

    http://www.carm.org/islam.htm

    That should give you enough to help your friend.
     
  7. robycop3

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    There are several absolute, beyond-any-doubt PROOFS found in the Bible showing its truth. The prophecies about the Jews is a good place to start. In the whole world, there are approximately 13 million Jews now living. Of these, about 4.8 million live in Israel, while some 5.8 million live in the USA, many of them holding high positions in government and industry.(New York City is by far the most-Jewish city on earth, with some 1.8 million Jews, while there are less than 4.5K Jews in JERUSALEM!) The USA has been the most powerful military nation of all time, while Israel is the all-time "pound-for-pound" military champ. Whether the Muslims will admit it or not, if all the 60 million Muslams surrounding Israel were to band together against her, they'd still be defeated.

    There are Jews in the driver's seat of most of the world's finances, the main exception being OPEC.

    All this has come to pass within 50 years.

    No one can deny that the Jews have been the most-persecuted specific people who ever lived. They've been under fire for over 2600 years! They've been subject to great pogroms in succession by the Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, and Romans, & after the Diaspora by the Romans they weren't welcome hardly anywhere, with this hatred extending into modern times, culmination in the Nazi holocaust, and a similar but smaller-scale pogrom in the Soviet Union. No other people have so been subjected to such persecutions and remained a distinct people very long at all, let alone for 2600 years! The ONLY nation that's been Jew-friendly since its founding has been the USA!

    And some of your friend's cousin's slogan-shouting diaper-head buddies have tried to wipe out the Jews, and have been roundly defeated with heavy loss in life and equipment every time.

    He might just ask his cousin...DID THE JEWS DO THIS ALL ON THEIR OWN? Are they really that superior a people? Or, IS GOD LOOKING AFTER THEM AS HE SAID HE WOULD, NOT BECAUSE THEY DESERVE IT, but to show you Moslems and the rest of the world that HE KEEPS HIS WORD?

    Does his cousin know there are almost as many Arabic versions of the Koran as there are English Bible versions? While we read mostly translations of the Bible, the Koran was written in the Arabs' own tongue and alphabet, neither of which has changed that much in the 1300 years since Mohammed lived. They have no excuse for all those Koran versions since Arab versions aren't translations.

    And Islam is divided into several distinct groups such as Sunni and Shiite. who often fight each other as if they were entirely different religions. These rifts go all the way back to Mohammed's great-great-great grandfather Qusayy, a king of Mecca, whose sons divided Mecca into zones of rule for themselves, after Qusayy's death, with Abdu Manaf, Mohammed's ancestor, becoming the most powerful. All of Qusayy's sons fought sporadically among themselves over which one was the TRUE heir of Qusayy's throne. These arguments cropped up again after Mohammed had died, thus creating the sects of Islam existing today. They are more different among themselves than are Protestants and Catholics.

    The Koran has no prophecies! Your friend may ask his cuz to point out a prophecy in the Koran! OTOH, he can show his cuz many VERY SPECIFIC prophecies in the Bible which have come to pass, and are coming to pass RIGHT NOW. A cardinal, undeniable prophecy coming to pass RIGHT NOW is the massive increase in knowledge ant travel going on TODAY. Another is the growth of the Jews in might and wealth, having their own sovereign nation in the land God gave them long ago, against all human odds, and having JERUSALEM as their capital again, against the longest-possible human odds! Moslems don't like to talk about those things because THEY CANNOT DENY THEM.

    The Bible has so MANY specific prophecies that even Moslems will admit have come to pass! The destruction of Tyre so its site will be a place for fishermen to spread their nets has come to pass PRECISELY! It didn't happen overnight, though. Its fulfillment was completed by Alexander the Great. While many cities submitted to Alex, rather than fight, since his rule was benign, complete with protection from other enemies, Tyre chose to fight. When he captured the city, he exiled the inhabitants and razed the remains to the ground. There were some local inhabitants left in the area, along with some Tyrians eventually released by Alex, who were mostly fishermen. And to this day, fishermen spread their nets to mend and dry upon the huge flat rock where once stood part of Tyre. It will never be rebuilt, as God prophesied, because, for one thing, its port area is too shallow to accommodate modern ships.

    Another such prophecy is for Babylon. Alexander planned to make it his capital, but he died before he could do this, and his general Seleucus built Seleucia on the Tigris River, and almost all the important people of Babylon moved there. Much of the city still stood in Jesus' time, but it had gradually been razed by then, and was completely abandoned by Charlemagne's day, 700s-800s AD. Once again, a Biblical prophecy was precisely fulfilled, but not overnight.

    Egypt? All of Ezekiel 29 is a prophecy against Egypt that has come to pass PRECISELY. Nebuchadnezzar DID exile her people for 40 years, with the Persians allowing them to return, and there's absolutely NO DISPUTE that Egypt was once among among the wealthiest and most powerful nations on earth, almost unsurpassed in wisdom and knowledge...and that today she is a "Third World" nation where poverty is the norm. Militarily, she's no match for Israel, which brings us to some more fulfilled prophecies...Zechariah 10:11..."and the scepter of Egypt shall depart." Egypt was under foreign rule from Nebuchadnezzar's time, the early 500s BC until the British granted her sovereignty after WW2. ALL HER RULERS EVER SINCE THEN HAVE BEEN ARABS!! Cleopatra was the last native Egyptian to even nominally rule Egypt, so indeed her scepter has departed. Her national language is ARABIC, there are many Arab associations HQ'd in Egypt.

    Isaiah 19:17 "And the land of Judah will be a terror to Egypt; everyone who makes mention of it will be afraid in himself, because of the counsel of the LORD of hosts which He has determined against it."

    Yes, after several tries, Egypt knows she's no match for Israel militarily. She has gone out of her way to disassociate herself with the terrorists who attack Israel.

    One more specific prophecy fulfilled & then I'll end this rambling post: Zechariah 9: 6 "Foreigners will occupy Ashdod, and I will cut off the pride of the Philistines."

    Also, there are the prophecies concerning the Philistine cities of Ekron, Gaza, and Ashkelon, which don't now exist, precisely as prophesied. (The little villages near their sites, which bear their names, hardly qualify.)

    But let's return to Ashdod. And let us remember that the Philistines were the ancestors of most of today's PALESTINIANS. Ashdod was considered the chief among the Philistines' five cities, and was the center of Dagon-worship. It was there and in its vicinity that Samson troubled the Philistines. It was there that the victorious Philistines took the ark of the Covenant. Dagon-worship continued there although Ashdod came under the rule of several foreigh nations, including Judah, even though Judah itself was a vassal state at the time. The Maccabees destroyed the temple of Dagon, effectively relegating that idol to the history books.

    By modern times, Ashdod had been reduced to the small Palestinian village of Isdud. During the 1948 Arab-Jewish war, the Jews destroyed Isdud and took over the area, quickly settling the site with Jews and restoring its old name Ashdod. No need to elaborate how wealthy and modern that Jewish Ashdod now is!

    The Palestinians who survived are refugees to this day. Indeed, from their point of view, foreigners have occupied Ashdod, and the pride of the Philistines has been brought low, precisely as prophesied!

    Shoot, I can write all day about fulfilled precise, specific Biblical prophecies proven by history, science, and archaeology, but these should be starters. I wrote these because your friend's Moslem cousin can easily check their veracity for himself Your friend can also explain that he has faith in the unseen by what IS seen, and that no Islamic tenet of faith can be based upon such.

    The Arabic Moslem can claim Allah has blessed them with most of the world's known oil reserves, but WHAT WILL THEY DO WHEN THE OIL IS ALL GONE? Shoot, they hafta spend many a petrodollar just to feed themselves or purify enough water to live.

    God DID bless Ishmael and his descendants because of Abraham's prayers, but his line through ISAAC inherited the birthright promise, not Ishmael, not his sons by his second wife Keturah.

    Since the Moslem can base his beliefs upon faith same as we, I thought I'd write these examples to show the CHRISTIAN faith is not BLIND faith, that we have an absolute pragmatic foundation for our faith. Even though we haven't yet seen JESUS, we have FAITH AND BELIEF in Him because of what we HAVE seen come to pass by His word, and not by just a pipe dream invented by some person to soothe the soul. Islam is simply a blind faith without a foundation, based upon a book full of open-ended hopes & dreams, while Christianity is based upon things God really caused to happen, things which were specifically predicted by Him, things which are coming to pass RIGHT BEFORE OUR EYES. Can any Moslem deny THAT?

    Faith comes by hearing, and hearing, by the word of God. Hearing WHAT? God's prophecies. We see they've come to pass right down the line into our present day. What else do we hear from God's word? We hear about how to become righteous in His sight. We hear His COMMANDS. We hear about how He chose a people, Israel, as a peculiar people unto Himself, and we hear about how He's both punished them and healed them, with those things being confirmed in history. God has said He will make them great again, beginning with the Jews; the Moslems, knowing this prophecy, have tried to prevent it from happening by warring against the Jews, but we see how futile their efforts have been.

    What do we hear from the Koran? The adventures of one man and his cohorts, and NOT about miracles, and NO prophecy whatsoever, let alone any SPECIFIC, PRECISE predictions. Upon what do the Moslems base their faith? They base it upon their belief that their god chose Mohammed to be a prophet, while ignoring the fact that Mohammed made no prophecies. They haven't bothered to see why so many of their logos bear a crescent moon.(A subject for another discussion)

    So-called Black Muslems have even less excuse, because MOHAMMED WAS WHITE! Yet, they claim, "Islam is the black man's religion"! Whatta joke!

    In summary, Christianity is based upon PROVEN FACT, while Islam is based upon HOPE AND GUESSWORK.
     
  8. Plain Old Bill

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    Great site Gene.
    Good entry RobyCop.
    I would also recommend your friend read "Evidence That Demmands a Verdict" by Josh McDowell. A great everyday easy to read lay persons book on apologetics.Get that muslim fellow to read that and see what he has to say then.
     
  9. Fishnbread

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    All of you guys are giving me good advice please keep it up.

    your servant
    fishnbread
     
  10. GeneMBridges

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    Fishnbread,

    Islamic apologists are currently mounting a direct attack on the transmission of the New Testament itself. Your friend's cousin may be aware of this.

    James White has been following it and writing about it at his blog. If you look here:

    http://www.aomin.org/index.php?catid=11&blogid=1

    you'll find all the articles he has written. Some are pretty technical, I admit, but nevertheless, it can't hurt to have many arrows in one's quiver.
     
  11. Karen

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    The Case for Christ and The Case for Faith, both by Lee Strobel, are very useful books.

    Karen
     
  12. ktn4eg

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    Another source you may wish to check out is that of the Arab World Ministries:

    http://www.gospelcom.net/awm/site/index.php

    If you click on resources, you will find some excellent introductory material to various aspects of life in a Muslim country, the Koran, etc.

    There are many other excellent sources, but this is one with which I'm familiar
     
  13. Marcia

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    This is a link to articles on the Answering Islam site. Muslims often have specific things they've been taught erroneously about the Bible and the Christian faith (like believing that the Trinity is God, Jesus, and Mary). The first link on this page is "A Christian Defense of the Gospel to Mulims" bit there are many useful articles here! [​IMG]

    http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/index.htm
     
  14. El_Guero

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    Gene,

    The link you give looks like it goes into textual criticism rather well.

    I would also recommend Hyde's book "discipleship and leadership."
    This book is a classic on "why a challenge to faith" can be a good opportunity to grow.

    And it is short ...

    In Christ,

    Wayne
     
  15. R. Charles Blair

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    It is generally agreed that monotheism (the belief in one God) is superior intellectually to polytheism (many deities, each limited). We do live in a universe, not a "polyverse" (nor a "per-verse," though it sometimes seems so!).

    But there are only 3 significant monotheistic faith-groups in history: Judiasm, Islam, and Christianity (in the broadest sense of each).

    All 3 agree that the Hebrew Scriptures (what we call the "Old Testament") are divinely given in some way, and have authority. Jews have many commentries based on their Scriptures, but none of the commentaries claim verbal inspiration. They attempt to explain, but admit limitations (as do wise Christian commentators!). Islam has what claims to be a verbally inspired document, their Koran, but it does not claim to or even attempt to explain the Hebrew Scriptures, though acknowledging them as authoritative.

    Of the 3 monotheistic world-views, only the Christian faith has a set of documents claiming verbal inspiration AND an explanation of the (admittedly difficult) Hebrew Scriptures which all 3 accept in common. Logically, Christianity may be wrong in its explanation (obviously we do not think we are!), but if we are wrong, there is no material claiming divine inspiration and even attempting to explain the Hebrew Scriptures!

    This is a simplified digest of a lengthy discussion often used in various teaching situations, including pastors in Uganda where the Moslem view is common. They found it helpful for practical witnessing; feel free to adapt and use as you feel led. Best - Charles -Ro. 8:28
     
  16. Mommyperson

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    Why We Believe by James Jauncey would be a good detailed book for your friend to read.
     
  17. LorrieGrace

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    Read "Unveiling Islam" by the Caner brothers. It is an easy, understandable read. Both the brothers were Muslim that were saved by Jesus Christ. The give advice on how to communicate with Muslims without being confrontation.
     
  18. windanvil

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    It is always good to read books. I am an avid reader, myself. Any attempts at witnessing should keep a few things in mind. The Bible says that no one can come to the Father except the Spirit draw him. No one can lead a person to Christ except God be doing His work through that person. We cannot save people. We can only allow ourselves to be an instrument through which He does His redemptive work. We should pray for God to redeem that person and we should be available to make any adjustments in our lives for God to do His redemptive work through us. Until that happens, we should so live that others can see Christ in us even if we don't say a word about God.
     
  19. JackRUS

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    That is not how people get saved. This is...

    "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and
    also to the Greek."

    For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
    How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?
    and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?
    and how shall they hear without a preacher?
    And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written,
    How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
    But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
    So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Rom. 1:16;10:13-17

    This is the main reason that I'm not a Calvinst. Read Isa. 66:2 and you will see why God draws some people and not others. (Hint: this takes an act of the will).

    I agree with a lot of the points in your post, but people are not redeemed through us or are we "an instrument through which He does His redemptive work."
     

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