"Never Saved To Begin With"

I take it you do not believe OSAS.

 

Ken, just curious, do have a denomination? Do you attend a church?

 

Matthew 13:18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
Matthew 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
Matthew 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Matthew 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but endureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
Matthew 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
Matthew 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some a hundredfold some sixty, some thirty.


Only the people of Good grounds are the Believers who hear the Words and perceive them, who go to the Heaven. These are the believers born again by the words of God.

There are degrees among them, 30 times, 60 times, 100 times, 2 times, 5 times, 1000 times.

The rest of the people betray the Words, will go to the Hell. They don't have any degrees. They don't bear the fruits.

This is one of the portion that many misunderstand.

Jn 15 - The branch looked like real part of it, but couldn't bear the fruits because it is not virtually part of the tree. They are fake Christians and will be thrown away into the fire. Fake Christians cannot bear the fruits because they are not connected with the Tree and cannot get the nutrition from the Tree, Jesus Christ. They pretend and look like branches, but they turn out to be withered and will be thrown into the FIRE ! Treu Branches always get the nutrition and water from the Tree and bear the fruits.

 

Hbr 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some [is]; but exhorting [one another]: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Ken, I think you have missed an important command of scripture. We are not to "go it alone". Worshiping in your home with your family is not the same thing as "assembling together". We as a church are to encourage and strenghthen one another, be discipled.

We are given teachers and preachers from God. We are to reach out through missions to the lost. If God wanted us to sit at home, we wouldn't need teachers or preachers yet He has appointed some to be so. We would not be able to do much in the way of missions if we did it on a 1 person scale. It takes the group to take on such tasks.

Even in the first Church 2000 years ago, there were problems. Paul had much to say about this, but he never commanded that they disassemble and go home to worship alone. As long as there are humans, there will be problems, but we as members of Christ's body are to rise above that and not abandon one another.

For someone who is so works oriented, you have sure left a lot of works out of your Christian beliefs.

It seems as though you are still trying to live under the law and as the Bible makes crystal clear, no one is justified by the law. You cannot be good enough to be righteous in God's sight.


Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Mar 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God.

None that are good includes you and me.

 

Amy,

Heb. 10:25 is not talking about building where we come to worship God. It talks about to encourge each other, not neglect or leave them, edify them growing in Christ, encourage them to stand and unity together, because the coming of Christ draw near.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

HP: Don’t allow anyone condemn you for worshiping with your family at home. Worship in ones home does not necessitate one not 'assembling themselves' together. They most likely are as much a group of believers as you would find anywhere. “Where two or three are gathered in My name” is where the Lord is in our midst.

I certainly do not feel that worshiping at home is at all times the most beneficial for the entire family, but let every man and women be convinced in their own mind when and where to worship. May God be near you and your family in times like these. I pray that no matter where you worship or how large or small the congregation, that God might visit among all of you and that by His Spirit you might be encouraged to live a holy life before Him.

Let no man (or women) condemn you for having a clear conscience before God and man. “I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me” is our motto. Holiness unto the Lord is our watchword and song, and with the Lord’s provision we can indeed walk holy and righteous before Him. Be a strong leader. Set the example for others around you of virtue, wisdom, love for God and charity for all men, especially those of the household of faith. :thumbsup:

 

I will never forget the look on a Pastors face one day as I sat in his office talking to him about some things he said on the radio. After I related to him why I thought what he said was out of line with the Word of God, he asked me this question. “Where do you worship?” At the time I as well was worshiping in our home with my family. As soon as I said that, he began to chide me about not forsaking the assembly. I let him go on for a while, and then looked squarely into his eyes and said, “Pastor, you have me thinking. I am looking for a good church home. Why don’t I just come visit your Sunday school class this Sunday, and see how it goes.” Immediately, his countenance fell. He looked at me with a worried look. He said, “ Well, I did not mean that you needed to come here, seeing how you believe and you knowing how I teach.”

So much for his admonition about not forsaking the assembly. It was obvious to me that all he wanted to do is find someplace to jab me, having been put on the spot for the remarks he had made on the air. He had about as much concern for me not forsaking the assembly as one does when the tell you to be “warm and filled.”

Oh well. Onward and upward. :smilewinkgrin:

 

Here is what we learn in the NT from Jesus:

Mat 22:35 Then one of them, [which was] a lawyer, asked [him a question], tempting him, and saying,

Mat 22:36 Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

It appears that you think that you are the only one who has received the perfect revalation of God. You seem to think that all churches are corrupt and do not obey the word of God, yet you have interpreted the scriptures perfectly.

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

As I said before, Paul wrote of problems in the churches, but never said they were to disassemble.

As long as they believe in the death, burial and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ and that we are saved by grace through faith in His shed blood, we are all brothers and sisters in Christ.

These people woshipped in "homes" but it wasn't always their own homes. And they did so because there were no church buildings. These assemblies did not consist of just 1 family. There were thousands in each city. On the day of Pentacost, 3000 were saved at Peter's preaching.
The "church" is the body of Christ consisting of many believers. It doesn't matter if they meet in a home or a building, but the point is that they're were many, many gathering daily together wherever they could.
Those passages are not talking about individual familes holding services in their own private homes apart from other believers.

There is nothing wrong with holding worship services in a private home, but if it only consists of 1 family, that is "family worship time" not the assembling together of believers that Paul is teaching.

 

I am sure I could find a good church for you to attend in your area -
:saint:
in Christ,

Bob

 

That is the pre-cross teaching of Christ -- just as valid BEFORE the Cross as it is AFTER the cross!

(There is after all - only ONE Gospel in ALL ages)

But since you are talking about NT teaching...

Christ’s followers continue to keep the Sabbath commandment and so we can see that they were obeying His command that they should “Love Me and Keep My Commandments” John 14:15 (which in fact is quoting from the 3rd commandment in Exodus 20)

 

Bob, I never implied we aren't to keep the commandments. I was quoting Jesus' command that we LOVE God. He never commanded us to FEAR Him the way that Ken is talking about.

When he says "the whole duty of man is to fear God and keep the commandments" he's referring to OT law and it's penalties. Under the new covenant, Christ has kept all the commandments that I have not been able to. I am made righteous in Him because He kept the law perfectly. We are not made righteouse because we keep the law perfectly, because no human ever has or ever will. If we could attain the righteousness of God, we wouldn't need a Savior. Heaven would await all those who kept the law and never sinned.
Even though Abraham was declared righteous because of his faith, he still sinned. No one is sinless. Ken is saying he is sinless.

Even Paul, who was the greatest Christian that ever lived, IMO, struggled with sin:


Rom 7:19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
Rom 7:20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
Rom 7:22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
Rom 7:23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

We will not be free of sin until we shed these corruptible bodies.

 

HP: Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

There is not any evidence in the Word of God that we cannot or will not be free from sin in this present world IF we walk in the light as He is in the light, trusting in the power of the Spirit to keep us from sin. The idea you set forth, i.e. imputed righteousness, suggests that we just keep on sinning just as all sinners do, yet we are forgiven while those that do the same things are condemned yet because we have been declared righteous, God does not see our sin, is simply not according to the Word of God. “Ro 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.” Heb 2:1 ¶ Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

God has promised to free us from sin and corruption “in this present world.” That is not a license to sin which imputed righteousness logically suggests is the case. (NOT that I believe that all who believe in imputed righteous feel they have personally have a license to sin, but rather that such a notion logically suggests it)

2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

If imputed righteousness was the case, there would be no need to exercise diligence as the apostle commands.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

God is certainly able and willing that we walk without sin in this present world. Our duty is to avail ourselves by faith to His strength and proffered help. In order to accomplish that, you must first believe that such a state is possible, and then to seek it with our whole hearts, minds, and strength. A man will never attempt to attain that which he or she thinks is a natural impossibility. It all starts with believing.

Amy, do you believe that God is able to keep you from falling and to present you faultless before the presence of God? Do you believe that through the power of the Spirit we can be over comers, made free from sin in this present world? If not, what sin has more power than God has to free us from it?

 

Those who are attracted to self-righteousness are always attracted to the denial of the Integrity of Christ to guarantee salvation and the promotion of human effort (i.e. human righteousness) to guarantee salvation. They will scour the Word of God to find any passage they can possibly find to reason that their scheme is legitimate.

 

HP: Who denies that the sacrifice of Christ is the only thing with the power to cleanse the heart from sins that are past? Who on this list claims that one is righteous apart from the shed blood of Christ for all past sins and the help of the Holy Spirit to keep us from sin? Since when is the desire and practice of present obedience through the empowerment of the Holy spirit, merely ‘self-righteousness?’

So obedience to Gods commands are nothing but self-righteous attempts to gain salvation by works? Are God’s promises to help and strengthen us to obedience nothing more that God inflicting empty and vain self-righteous hopes upon us? Are you suggesting that the promises of the Word of God to help us live righteous and godly in this present world are nothing more than our over-zealous attempts to scour the Word of God for passages that support our manufactured notions?

 

You mean you didn't read what I said or didn't understand it? Either way let me repost what I said this way you won't be troubled to ask such questions lest you be tempted to twist my words and misrepresent them...and you wouldn't do that of course, right? :laugh:

 

HP: I believe I understood you correctly, and did not misrepresent your remarks in any way.

Try answering the questions I asked. I believe they are pertinent to the logical implications your remarks gender. By answering them, you have the wonderful opportunity to clear up any misunderstandings or false implications.