New Birth before and Unto Faith !

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by savedbymercy, Mar 19, 2012.

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  1. savedbymercy

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    New Birth before Faith !



    They shall declare His Righteousness Rom 1:17 to a generation that shall be born ! Rom 1:16-17

    16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

    17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

    Ps 22:30-31

    30A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

    31They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

    This Teaches New Birth before Faith, for the Generation or Seed must first be Born to Hear the Declared Righteousness !

    That Righteousness which is Declared is Christ's Rigorousness Imputed, and it is what God has Done through Christ for His People !
     
  2. savedbymercy

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    Scriptures that indicate New Birth before Faith !



    The Teaching of a New Birth before Faith is taught in scripture, but it is rejected by many. Here are some scriptures and or passages that indicate the Truth of New Birth before and in order to Believe. Lets look at Jn 6. Jesus here speaking spiritually says Jn 6:51

    51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

    Now as the Living Bread, He comes down from Heaven, for He is Identifying Himself as Spiritual 1 Cor 15:46-47

    46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

    47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

    His Words were Spiritual Jn 6:63

    It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

    Now what does Jesus mean in Vs 51 that if any man eat of this bread [Living Bread] He shall live forever ?

    What does Eat mean ? The word itself means to consume or to absorb, and it also means to believe in Him, Just like it says if any believes in Him , he shall live forever Jn 6:47

    Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

    Now I hope that this gives us to understand that this Bread to eat is Spiritual, Heavenly, Living and From above ! Now Jesus states in Jn 6:53

    53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

    Now Jesus saying what He said here, and how He says it, eating His Flesh and drinking His Blood both aorist subjunctives, are not options unless unless you have have Life in you ! What kind of Life ? Well where is the Bread from heaven from ? Jn 6:51

    51I am the living bread which came down from heaven: Its from above:He that cometh from above is above all:

    So what type of Life must be in One to consume Bread from above ? Life from above Jn 3:3

    3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    Or except a man be born from above, he cannot see the Kingdom of God ! In Essence, the same thing said in Jn 6:53.

    Folks how can anything but Life from above have a desire to consume , hunger to eat Bread from above ? it is only those Born from above, who life in them, that eats of the His flesh and drinks of His Blood. A Fleshly Natural Man cannot believe into a Heavenly and Spiritual Being Like Christ. Even though Christ was born out of Flesh and Blood by means of the Virgin Mary, Yet He was still 100% from Above, the Bread from above, A heavenly and Spiritual Man !
     
  3. savedbymercy

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    Scriptures that indicate New Birth before Faith !



    1 Cor 12:3

    3Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

    No Man can say Jesus is Lord [genuinely] except by the Holy Ghost, which means except by New Birth or being Born of the Spirit or by Revelation, as was Peters confession Matt 16:16-17

    16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

    17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

    This would also indicate that Peter was Born Again by the Spirit of God !

    But notice Paul writes in 1 Cor 12:3 " No one can say Jesus is Lord " but by the Holy Ghost. This could read, No Man can say Jesus is Lord except in or by the Holy Ghost !

    So this gives the Key to Paul's statement here Rom 10:9

    9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

    The word confess here means :

    to say the same thing as another, i.e. to agree with, assent

    2) to concede

    Now who is it to agree with ? To say the same thing with ? To concede with ? Its the Holy Ghost whom By is Preached the Word 1 Pet 1:12

    Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

    This is so because Paul knew such a confession of Christ being Lord [Jehovah] by a ethnic jew in His Day, it was evident they had been saved by the Holy Ghost's renewing and changing their mind to agree with Truth Titus 3:5

    5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

    So Only a saved[converted] jew would confess[genuinely] Jesus is Lord

    And only a saved gentile can say Jesus is Lord by the Holy Ghost as well 1 Cor 12:3 !

    This Post proves that New Birth before Faith !
     
  4. savedbymercy

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    Even Our Faith !



    1 Jn 5:4-5

    4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

    5Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

    Now if Faith is not the product and a effect of the merits of Christ, and born out of His Spirit, and it is something generated out of man , his flesh or man's freewill, then the flesh of man, his freewill, gives himself the Victory that overcomes the world, to say the least this is Idolatry !

    Thats why many religious people like to view Faith as their response to God's Offer, and this response of theirs gives them the Victory, bragging rights so to speak, reason to boast !
     
  5. steaver

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    I gotta tell you SBG, I don't know how the rest of the board feels, but I find your post as a tinkiling cymbal. I don't find you persuasive, but rather preachey, and this done without love for the brethren. My humble suggestion to you is that you don't waste so much precious time trying to convince every Christian that Calvin was right. Who really cares? Does it make one a better Christian? I know some pretty awesome Christians who do not embrace TULIP. They are doing marvelous works for our Lord!
     
  6. DHK

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    No they don't. Only by twisting Scripture according to your preconceived ideas.
    Ludicrous! Did you read verse 1? "Now I would not have you ignorant brethren concerning spiritual gifts.
    The context is the supernatural spiritual gifts manifest in the first century. It is evident that you have ignored context and pulled this verse out of its context to mean something other than its intended meaning.

    For example, I was a Catholic for 20 years. Through various prayers and the recitation of creeds and confessions I had said the Jesus is Lord many, many times. But it wasn't by the Holy Spirit. I wasn't saved. It simply was my own human spirit. Anyone can read those words out of a book. You obviously don't know the meaning of the verse and don't care to know the meaning of the verse as long as you can make it fit into your twisted theology.
    That is not what the 1Cor.12:3 teaches and not what Mat. 16:16,17 teaches. You just read whatever you want into the Bible. It also teaches "there is no God" in Psalm 14:1, doesn't it? You can make the Bible say anything you want, and that is precisely what you are doing.
    Being born again simply means believing in Christ by faith as John 1:12,13 indicates. Peter's confession says nothing about the new birth. He confessed that Christ was the Messiah. He had faith that Christ was the Messiah which would indicate salvation. If he was saved he was born again. That is obvious. Faith always comes first. You have it backwards.
    What has that got to do with the price of pottery in Corinth?
    The supernatural sign gifts have nothing to do with the new birth. That is how far you have taken Scripture out of context and twisted it.
    Your big mistake here, other than taking a very narrow view of defining "confess" is not looking at the rest of Romans 10:9. You ignored most of the verse, only looking at one of the verbs.

    If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thy heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    --You missed the most important part.
    BELIEVE IN YOUR HEART!!!!!!!!!
    The faith comes before the new birth. The faith comes first!
    Why did you not mention faith, and only "confess," and redefine "confess" to fit your own theology??
    No it doesn't.
    Concerning this last part:
    1. Titus is a pastoral epistle. He is in Crete. The churches that he would be overseeing would be Gentile in nature, for the Island population was pagan.
    2. Corinth was in Greece. Most of the believers came from a pagan background, as Paul refers to in 1Cor.12:2, the verse preceding the one you quoted. But you didn't bother to look at the context, did you?
    3. Thus to say "only a converted Jew would confess Jesus is Lord" is a ridiculous conclusion to come to--not logical, and just as illogical as your second conclusion "that only a saved Gentile can say Jesus is Lord by the Holy Ghost.

    Both of the above are derived from a statement speaking about supernatural spiritual gifts. But you don't care about that.

    In fact none of what you wrote proves that the new birth comes before faith. If anything it would prove the opposite.
     
  7. savedbymercy

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    dhk

    Yes they do !

    Of course, and it changes nothing about vs 3

    Yes it does !

    One needs to be Born Again in order to Believe on Christ, else they are spiritually dead ! A Spiritually dead creature cannot believe !

    I do not know what you are talking about, please stick with the principle thought, it takes spiritual life to perform a spiritual act, such as receive spiritual Truth, a spiritually dead person cannot make any spiritual movement.

    I am very familiar with Roman's 10 !
    Yes those a spiritual works [verbs] that a spiritually dead man cannot do ! If they do them, then and become saved as a result, then they are saved because of things they did, which is salvation by works !

    Yes it does ! For a spiritually dead man can do nothing spiritually or know nothing spiritually !



    It all does, you cannot receive it , but you are held accountable !
     
  8. savedbymercy

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    Saving Faith or converting Faith is a Faith that is only given to God's Elect so Paul calls it the Faith of God's Elect Tit 1:1-2

    1Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

    2In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

    And it is this Faith that John refers to in 1 Jn 5:4-5

    4For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

    5Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
     
  9. DHK

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    There is not a single scripture that teaches the new birth comes before faith, not one. You haven't provided one either. In fact the new birth and salvation occur simultaneously, and cannot happen unless faith precedes them both.
    You are embarrassing yourself.
    You say you know what 1Cor.12:1 says, but yet you claim it has nothing to do with the meaning of verse 3, and likewise vs.2 has nothing to do with verse 3. Amazing! This is how you interpret Scripture? A novel method of hermeneutics, I must say! Cherry pick the verse and ignore all the surrounding verses. What do you call that kind of Bible Study??
    No, you are quite wrong in this. Look again:

    3Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

    Somehow you claim that this verse is teaching the new birth and that it precedes faith. But this verse does not teach a single solitary thing about the new birth. That is why you have ignored verses 1 and 2. Paul plainly says it is speaking of "spiritual gifts." You don't want to admit that. It has nothing to do with the new birth, and you can't prove that through Scripture.
    There are hundreds of people that read these posts each day. Because that verse is posted there they will read it. Of the people that read it some will be unsaved. Not everyone that reads it will be reading/saying by the Holy Ghost that "Jesus is Lord." They will say/read it of their own human spirit not of the Holy Spirit. You obviously don't know the meaning of the verse, and are clearly ignoring the context of supernatural sign gifts.
    Define "dead"? Do you mean "corpse"? That is not what "dead" means in the Bible. "Dead" simply means "separated from God," and that is all. A person that is separated can indeed communicate with God. Cornelius did, and then God sent to him Peter. Peter preached and then Cornelius was regenerated/saved. Lydia prayed to God and the Lord sent to her Paul, and then Lydia was regenerated/saved.

    But what you can't explain is Adam.
    Adam was given a command. Don't eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for in the day thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die.
    Adam ate; Adam died. He died that very day.
    Thus we have "dead" Adam carrying on a conversation, audibly yet, with God. How do you explain that if Adam is dead and dead men don't talk!!!
    But Adam died that day, and Adam continued to talk. Not until God himself sacrificed an animal was Adam restored to fellowship with God. A dead person can speak to God. For dead simply means separated.
    I do stick with the subject but you don't.
    This is what you quoted:
    3Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
    --This has nothing to do with regeneration, salvation, or even justification.
    It is a verse speaking about the spiritual gifts of the first century. Look at the context:

    1 Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
    --This is how it starts out. But you want to ignore this verse and ignore the context.

    You quoted verse 3. What does it say after verse 3:
    1 Corinthians 12:4-6 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
    --A description of the spiritual gifts given out in the first century. You ignore the context and cherry pick verse 3 out of this context and try and make it speak of the new birth which it obviously does not.
    --The only true thing you said is that you did not understand what I was talking about. And that is true.
    Good, then you should have quoted the last half of the verse and not just the first part.
    Belief or faith is not a work. You err on this, and grievously so. Faith is an intangible. We receive salvation by faith. It is a gift to be received by faith.
    We are justified by faith. Paul writes of faith in Romans 4:4 and defines it as those "that work not." It is the opposite of work; "working not."
    Did Adam know nothing? He too was spiritually dead.
    When I came to Christ I knew many facts of Christianity. I had been a Catholic for 20 years, and in that time I had learned much about Christianity, but I had never known Christ personally. I know of a Muslim that memorized the entire NT. He knows many facts, spiritual facts, but is not saved. The Bible has many spiritual facts. But spiritual knowledge in and of itself does not save.
    The spiritually dead man must (separated from God) must be reconciled to God. He does that by hearing the gospel. The Word of God is alive and powerful. It is the gospel that is the power of God unto salvation. He puts his faith and trust in Christ and his atoning work, and Christ saves him. He becomes part of the family of God, a child of God. That is also the new birth--being born into God's family.
    I am accountable to God, not to you. What you teach is not biblical. You cannot demonstrate it from the Bible.
     
  10. savedbymercy

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    Saving Faith is not only an mental assent in the spiritual mind, but also an affection with the Heart for the object of Faith. The Regenerated Man believes with His Heart Rom 10:9 the word heart is the greek word kardia and means:


    denotes the centre of all physical and spiritual life

    1) the vigour and sense of physical life

    2) the centre and seat of spiritual life

    a) the soul or mind, as it is the fountain and seat of the thoughts, passions, desires, appetites, affections, purposes, endeavours

    b) of the understanding, the faculty and seat of the intelligence

    A unregenerate man has no spiritual life or affections for the things of God !

    So Spiritually believing in Christ also means to spiritually Love Him at the same time, there is no believing in Christ with the Heart without loving Him also. Paul when testifying of His Sovereign Conversion experience by Grace, states that His Unbelief was overcome by Faith and Love 1 Tim 1:14

    And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. And Paul's conversion was an example or pattern of all that should believe unto everlasting Life 1 Tim 1:16

    16Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

    Jesus told some jews this Jn 8:42

    Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

    Regeneration begets a Faith and Love for a Unseen Jesus 1 Pet 1:8

    Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

    So Believing in Christ and Love towards Him go hand and hand, those things which accompany salvation, and folks it is impossible for the Natural man to Love God ! And Christ is God Man !
     
  11. savedbymercy

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    Saving or Converting Faith is not generated out of the flesh of man or his so called freewill, but it is born of God Lets look at 1 Jn 5:4

    4For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

    Notice the Holy Spirit inspired John to write here not whosoever, but whatsover born of God and in the neuter gender, so John in my opinion is talking about Faith , that Our overcoming Faith was born of God ! It's a gift of God's Grace and comes out of being born out of that incorruptible seed, which is the Logos of God, the Lord Jesus Christ who in fact overcame the world, hear Him say Jn 16:33

    These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

    And this overcoming of the World was not just for His Benefit, but for the benefit of all for whom He became a sin offering for, His Body the Church, so in actuality, sense the Head was an overcomer, so were the Members ! Thats why He told them to be of good cheer. He being the Author and finisher of our Faith ! An overcoming Faith as 1 Jn 5:4 describes is a Gift from a Overcoming Saviour, that makes much spiritual sense !
     
  12. savedbymercy

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    A faith that is overcoming the World is a Gift of God's Grace by the New Birth of the Spirit ! Eph 2:8-9 teaches that Faith is a Gift that accompanies Salvation by Grace, therefore we who are True believers Believe because of Grace Acts 18:27

    27And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

    The word through here is the greek prep dia which means:

    through

    a) the ground or reason by which something is or is not done

    1) by reason of

    2) on account of

    3) because of for this reason

    4) therefore

    5) on this account

    The reason why they believed was because of Grace, pretty simple ! Not freewill, not because of anything the flesh can do, but because of Sovereign grace !

    In addition Heb 12:2 states who is the Author of Faith. Then we have Peter's Testimony in 2 Pet 1:1

    1Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
     
  13. Godspeaks2me

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    I have yet to find fault with any of your idea's. :thumbs: Keep on doing what your doing brother! :thumbs:
     
  14. savedbymercy

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    Ok, but I must caution you, they are not my idea's ! But God's Truth !
     
  15. Godspeaks2me

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    God has already spoken to me about your idea's and there is much truth behind them. No caution is needed. :jesus:

    Though, I do take your caution with humbleness and will continue to reflect on all of God's idea's you have so graciously given to us in abundance. :godisgood:
     
  16. savedbymercy

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    2 Pet 1:1

    1Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

    This statement by the inspired Apostle condemns 99.999% of all false religions of our day who teach that Faith is of man, or his own freewill !

    Faith is provided[ to supply with] by God Our Saviour, and so it is said to be obtained "like precious" !

    Now the english word for obtained means:

    to come into possession of

    And the greek word means:

    to obtain by lot

    a) to receive by divine allotment, obtain

    2) to cast lots, determine by lot

    The word allotment means:

    to appropriate for a special purpose

    to assign as a portion

    And the word Lot means :

    allotted share or portion: to receive one's lot of an inheritance.

    Folks this is not a natural faith Peter is here referencing, we are not born with it by nature, This is a Saving Faith or Converting Faith and it is obtained by Lot, and comes from God's portioning out one's Inheritance. 1 Pet 1:3-4

    3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

    4To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

    The word Inheritance is the greek word klēronomia:


    an inheritance, property received (or to be received) by inheritance

    2) what is given to one as a possession

    a) the eternal blessedness of the consummated kingdom of God which is to be expected after the visible return of Christ

    b) the share which an individual will have in that eternal blessedness

    Its from the root word klēronomos:


    one who receives by lot, an heir

    a) an heir

    So Faith is alloted to all those who share in the Inheritance of Christ, which is all for whom He died and rose again in behalf of !
     
  17. DHK

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    Let's just leave at "your ideas." They can be easily refuted, and therefore are not necessarily God's Truth.

    Such arrogance is not becoming of a Christian.
     
  18. savedbymercy

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    Refute the Truthes of post 16 !
     
  19. DHK

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    No it doesn't. The word "faith" is used in more than one way. This is not the verb: "have faith," or "believe," it is the noun, "the faith," that body of truth which we believe. It is the faith which Jude commanded us "to contend for." All of us have obtained like precious faith (the gospel, justification by faith, sanctification, the resurrection, the atonement, etc.) with us through the righteousness of God and our Savior Jesus Christ. Our faith (that body of truth) is the same as the apostles, and is obtained because we all have the same standing in Christ. Peter is writing to believers who have the same faith as he--that is, he is not writing to Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, the SDA's, etc. but to the IFB's.
    The faith is the the Word of God. It is provided by the Scriptures.
    This is all moot if you don't understand the verse.
    You are right. It is not a nature faith. It is divine. It is the Scriptures. It is the faith once delivered unto us, a faith that we should contend for.
    The faith, the Bible is given to all those that are saved.
    It is that simple.
    Get it right!
     
  20. savedbymercy

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    dhk

    Yes it does !

    Is this what you call a refute of what I said ? This is laugh !

    Faith is not the word of God, faith is not provided by the scriptures.

    Rejection of Truth !


    More laughable comment, Faith is not the scriptures !

    You are liken to a lost ship at sea, you have no ideal what you are talking about ! You cannot refute scripture, you merely deny it and then say just about the first thing that comes to your mind !
     
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