NEW Testament six days of creation

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jun 1, 2007.

  1. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    Gekko posted this under another thread,
    "please - is there any scripture in NT about six literal days of creation?"


    I find six literal days literally indicated in the NEW Testament, that once for all confirmed the creation of God -- whether it ever existed for real (and literal), or, whether it as never, existed, but as an instant of transitoriness, nothingness and nihil.

    Faith is the first requirement to be able to see these six days. Seeing eyes are the next, and common sense. Lastly it requires the willingness to act upon, in order to be seen. Or it will be more than comical; it will be foolishness to any who fail in any of these conditions.

    Who is brave enough to call a first Scripture?
     
    #1 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jun 1, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 2, 2007
  2. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    I have virtually 'spelled it out'.
     
  3. BobRyan

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    Will we be allegorizing all of scripture on this thread?
     
  4. DHK

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    What I will say of what? Slander? I said nothing of a six day creation. My statement was in relation to Tragic Pizza's discussion of "science" in relation to prescience and pre-scientific. I suggest you withdraw your comments. I don't take to such slander lightly.
     
  5. BobRyan

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    Well you two came out with guns blazing - but I am not sure what the tiff is about.
     
  6. DHK

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    I would like to see accurate documentation of what I said, and in the context of where I said it in. Did I ever refer to any opinion of a six days of creation--the topic of this thread, and the topic of the other thread. The answer is no. Therefore an apology and retraction is in order. Slander is not permitted here. It is a violation of rules 3 and 4. I believe Gerhard has been warned before.
     
  7. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    GE:

    O DHK, I intended nothing like slander, God is my witness. How are you able to see such things in my reference to your statement. I actually used it in a positive, well meaning way, and for the same purpose. To emphasize what to the world may be wisdom, to God is foolishness; and the other way round!
    One believes in the creation of God; one needs not first prove it, or ever prove it!
    Please, are we not both Christians?

    Now I may repeat my opening remark, and say, I see the same faith working in the New Testament, and it concerns the 'literal' creation of God there. And I'll say it again - it requires faith to see it, or it will seem foolishness to unbelief. I expect of everyone on this board re-acting, they too are believers, and will be able to recognise these six literal days. (For BobRyan, not, allegorical days, but real, earthly days.) They are so obvious, I thought they would be identified by now.

    But I'll be patient, just maybe I won't be disappointed.

    In the spirit of Christ, I observe, and ask, please?
     
  8. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    I'll give a further indication in the direction of these six literal days of creation in the New Testament: They can be reached / determined either beginning with the last as the first, or the first as the last; or, from the last of them to the first. Or, they can unmistakenly be determined from the sixth day -- in two ways!

    Come on, isn't this bit of arithmatic fun, while being of fundamental truth!?
     
  9. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    GE:

    No blazing guns; just brain cells smoking a bit from friction.
     
  10. DHK

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    I don't find the topic of a six day creation comical as you inferred. And for the record, yes I do believe that the Lord created the universe in six literal days and rested on the seventh. Your reference to being comical about this was unwarranted and was even seen by Bob as an invitation to a heated argument with the phrase "blazing guns." On the topic stated we probably agree. But why take a statement out of context; a statement that refers to a completely different subject and apply it here in another thread about another subject, and wrongly insuate that I am comical in my attitude about the Word of God. That is very offensive, and insulting--insulting enough to have you reported. My attitude toward the Word of God is nothing but comical; it is reverence.
     
  11. Bible-boy

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    Hello GE,

    It certainly looks like your opening post is implying that DHK has somehow claimed or referred to a literal six days of creation (the Genesis account) as being comical. Likewise, if one goes back to the actual thread and reads DHK's full post in its proper context it is clear that he was not speaking about the Genesis account when he spoke of something being "almost comical." He was clearly addressing another BB member's post and use of the word "prescience."

    I don't know what point you intended to make by quoting DHK out of context in your opening post in the this thread. Perhaps this is simply a problem with cross-cultural communication (I assume that English is not your first language)?

    It is not very clear what point you are trying make or what answer you are seeking for your fellow BB posters to provide. As such I am going to remove your reference to DHK from your opening post. Perhaps you could attempt to rephrase your question without making further reference to DHK and clarify what exactly you are talking about and/or what information you are seeking.

    Yours in Christ,

    Bible-boy,
    Forum Moderator
     
  12. Hope of Glory

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    You're trying to force definitions on words that aren't there.

    In both the Hebrew and the Greek, the word used in the LXX for Genesis 1:1, can mean create from nothing, or to work with something that's already there.

    So, it comes down to context.

    I will post reference material at the end, for proof. BTW, although I prefer the BDAG for Greek references, it's reference was several pages long, so I included a different one. But, if it always means create from nothing, then when you make a chicken dinner...

    Genesis 1:1 is generally accepted to be the beginning of everything; the ultimate beginning. It does not state how God created the universe, only that “in the beginning, God” (God is eternal) and that He created. There are many who believe that it is only the beginning in reference to man, but the text does not support that. It doesn’t exactly deny it, but the wording most likely represents the ultimate beginning.

    The Hebrew word אָרָ. does not necessarily mean that it was created out of nothing, but most likely, that is the intent. It is not, however, limited to mean absolute creation.

    ְו is a very important thing to look at. The “waw” can be either conjunctive or disjunctive, depending upon the conditional clauses involved and their relationship to verse 1. What are the three conditional clauses?

    1.The earth was without form and void
    2.and darkness was upon the face of the deep
    3.and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

    Are these three clauses connected inseparably to verse 1? If yes, and verse 1 is the absolute beginning, then verse 2 would have to describe [FONT=&quot]how [/FONT]God created them (without form and void). This would mean that the beginning of verse 2 would describe the condition of the earth at the time of the action in verse 1. Then, the six subsequent days would describe how God completed the creation, step by step.

    So, if ְו is conjunctive, then either God created something imperfect or verse 1 does not describe an absolute beginning. God cannot be perfect and create something imperfect. James 3:11 asks the rhetorical question “Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet [FONT=&quot]water [/FONT]and bitter?”

    Therefore, verse 2 should begin with “but”, not “and”. As a matter of fact, if you look in the Septuagint, you will find that the Hebrew scholars who translated the Hebrew to Greek used the word “but”, just as it is used in Matthew 3:7. When used in the disjunctive sense, Genesis 1:2 is not inseparably connected to verse 1: A separation would exist. Verse 1 would be the absolute beginning and verse 2 begins events occurring later. Creation is perfect; six days to restore. (It should be noted here that verse 1 could be a summary declaration of creation followed by a revelation of “how”, but this would not properly follow Hebrew linguistics.)

    The expression .הֹבָו .הֹת is translated here as “without form and void”, but elsewhere is used to describe a state as being the result of catastrophe. .הֹ., by itself (translated “without form”) means “in vain”. Isaiah 45:18 says specifically, “For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I [FONT=&quot]am [/FONT]the LORD ; and [FONT=&quot]there is [/FONT]none else.” He specifically says that He did not create it in such a state.

    If we look at the first circumstantial clause in verse 2, the word translated “was” is most appropriately “became”. Not exactly “became”, but more appropriately “it was not this way, then it was”. Even the days “became” (vv 5,8,13,19,23,31) and at the end of the verses, it is, “and it became so”.

    If you look at Job 38:4, His angels were present at the creation. The earth was created after the angels, but before the rebellion of Satan. Isaiah 14:12 says, “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [FONT=&quot]how [/FONT]art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!” Satan was not created evil; he became evil.

    Satan wants a world that is religious; it’s conducive to his power now and that of the anti-Christ later. That’s why you see so many false religions: Astrology, palmistry, numerology, etc. Satan does not want to banish religion, he wants to draw people away from Christianity.

    Religion is man reaching for God; Christianity is God reaching man.

    Scriptures will only support one position:

    1.The absolute beginning is in Genesis 1:1
    2.The ruin of creation is described in Genesis 1:2a
    3.Restoration is performed through Divine intervention over 6 days in Genesis 1:2b-25
    4.Rest

    To be scripturally sound, absolute creation could not have taken place in six days; only the recreation or restoration could have. The Bible does not tell us how long the creation of the universe took, but the creation of the world as we know it took place in six literal days.

    Genesis 1 is Hebrew poetry at its finest, comprising several layers, which can best be expressed in a chiastic structure, based upon the Hebrew:

    1.1:1 He (God) Created
    2.1:1 God
    3.1:1 Heavens and Earth
    X.1:2 - 31 Forming and Filling of the Earth
    3’. 2:1 Heavens and Earth
    2’. 2:2 God
    1’. 2:3 He (God) had made

    To boil it down, the seven days of creation can be broken down as follows.

    1.First, in Genesis 1:1, it speaks of the creation of everything.
    2.Then, in 1:3 – 1:13 has to do with forming. Days 1 – 3 use verbs of formation.
    3.1:14 – 1:31 has to do with filling. Days 4 – 6 use verbs of filling.
    4.Then, it is announced that he finished them.

    The creation account in Genesis 1 is accurate and true. However, different interpretations by man that don’t line up with Scripture have muddied the water.
     
  13. Hope of Glory

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    The NET Bible has this to say: tn The English verb "create" captures well the meaning of the Hebrew term in this context. The verb בָּרָא (bārā') always describes the divine activity of fashioning something new, fresh, and perfect. The verb does not necessarily describe creation out of nothing (see, for example, Gen_1:27, where it refers to the creation of man); it often stresses forming anew, reforming, renewing (see Psa_51:10; Isa_43:15; Isa_65:17).


    Psalm 51:10: Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

    Isaiah 43:15: I [am] the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.

    Isaiah 65:17: For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.


    1343
    I. בָּרָא (bā∙rā(˒)): v.; ≡ Str 1254; TWOT 278—1. LN 42.29-42.40 (qal) create, i.e., make something that has not been in existence before (Ge 1:1); (nif) be created (Ge 2:4); 2. LN 42.29-42.40 make, form or fashion something out of elements that exist (Ge 6:7; Isa 65:18; Jer 31:22); 3. LN 42.7-42.28 do, i.e., bring about, perform a task, with an emphasis on the uniqueness of the event (Ex 34:10; Nu 16:30; Isa 45:7); 4. LN 90.51-90.55 causes something to happen (Am 4:13); 5. LN 12.1-12.42 (qal act. ptcp.) the Creator, i.e., a title of a supernatural being (Ecc 12:1; Isa 40:28; 43:15+); 6. LN 13.67 unit: בָּרָא לְ־ ־ִי טָהֹור לֵב (bā∙rā(˒) l- -î ṭā∙hôr lēḇ) restore my purity, formally, make for me a pure heart, i.e., bring back to a prior state (PS 51:12[EB 10]+)
    Swanson, James: Dictionary of Biblical Languages With Semantic Domains : Hebrew (Old Testament). electronic ed. Oak Harbor : Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997, S. DBLH 1343, #6

    4472 ποιέομαι (poieomai), ποιέω (poieō): vb.; ≡ DBLHebr 6913; Str 4160; TDNT 6.458—1. LN 90.45 do, make (Lk 13:22); 2. LN 42.7 perform, act., carry out (Jn 13:27; Lk 23:34 v.r.); 3. LN 13.9 cause to be (Jn 19:12); 4. LN 42.41 work, toil (Mt 20:12); 5. LN 42.29 make, create or fashion (Rev 13:14); 6. LN 41.7 behave toward someone in a particular way (Mt 7:12; 1Jn 1:6); 7. LN 37.106 assign to a task (Mk 3:14); 8. LN 57.189 make profit, make money (Lk 19:18); 9. LN 31.2 (dep.) be of opinion (Ac 20:24+) note: see LN index for a fuller treatment of the lexical units.​

    Swanson, James: Dictionary of Biblical Languages With Semantic Domains : Greek (New Testament). electronic ed. Oak Harbor : Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997, S. GGK44723
     
    #13 Hope of Glory, Jun 2, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 2, 2007
  14. BobRyan

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    I agree that the Angels and the rest of the Universe were already here at the start of day-one when God said of this world covered by water "let there be light".

    But you are wrong about 2 important assumptions in your statement above.

    The truth is -

    #1. Lucifer fell before the world was created.
    #2. There is NO "RUIN of creation" described in either Gen 1:1 or 1:2.

    NOTE: On day FOUR God creates "TWO great lights" the Sun and the moon. What kind of "ruin" are you imagining before that time??
    Note: In Gen 3 God tells us about the entrance of sin into this world and Romans 8 tells us that this earthly creation was subjected to death disease and decay as a result of the fall of Adam. What kind of RUIN do you suggest as having taken place on earth before sin?

    And as for "incomplete" -- look at Mars, look at Venus, look at the explosions and conditions of space. God made some planets for life and others -- not.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #14 BobRyan, Jun 3, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 3, 2007
  15. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Bible Boy:

    "It certainly looks like your opening post is implying that DHK has somehow claimed or referred to a literal six days of creation (the Genesis account) as being comical. Likewise, if one goes back to the actual thread and reads DHK's full post in its proper context it is clear that he was not speaking about the Genesis account when he spoke of something being "almost comical." He was clearly addressing another BB member's post and use of the word "prescience.""

    GE:

    This is how far I read the current page of this thread, immedialtely reaching for the keys to answer. So I don't know the rest even.
    But,
    I perfectly understand the context in which DHK gave his answer. His reference had bearing on the almost comical way some take refuge to science in order to explain the works of God in creating. I fully agree with him: their appeal to and knowledge of science are pathetic. Christian Faith needs none of it.

    Even the scientists themselves are more often than not, at best, just grandiloquent philosophers. 'Much ado about nothing' - and scarcely if ever practicing real science - from the nature of the case, an apriori impossibility.

    What's a pity to me, is how easily a thread can be 'derailed'. It wasn't my idea that any word should be spoken about science and all that jazz on this thread. That's why I started my own thread with an opening 'stanza' much like another ongoing one, yet with the emphasis completely differently placed.
     
  16. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    GE:

    I have just gone back to page one and now may refer you to my above post.

    I deny I ever referred to you or to your faith being comical. I am glad we both believe the same about creation. So I know what I'm going to do about this misunderstanding. I'm going to forget about it, even were you to report or ban me. It is sad to end the thing this way, but I have found the topic of this thread so interesting I wanted to share it with whomever might be interested, and, forgiving enough to differ with a fellow-believer.
     
  17. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    GE:

    Now I've read your whole post. And thanks, your advice is good. I needed not to have made refernce to DHK or his remark at all, it is true. I am sorry I did. I want to re-iterate my reason for having made that unfortunate reference: Please leave science out of this one. It's got nothing to with it or with an explanation of how God operated when He created the world. His Woird is clear enough.

    My idea actually was to show the prophetic(al) parallel in the New Testament of the creation six days of creation. I wanted to show that had it not been for these six days - in the life of Christ they were - creation would not have been; the fiurst six days of creation-week so to speak, would not even have made history; would not have been read of in the Scriptures. Where these six days were, a void would have existed as wide and inclusive as the Word of God, as the history of the creation -- in fact unimaginable but true, a void as inclusive as the existence of God Himself.

    Yes, those six days are indicated in the New Testament, in the Covenant of Grace, in the Life of Christ. And (thinking quickly) about half of them are indicated with their "evening"-start. All of them have an "evening"-beginning at least implied.

    If you want to know how to find the first of these six days, consult your Crudence or any other layman's help. You need not be a scientist!
     
  18. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Hope of Glory:

    "1.First, in Genesis 1:1, it speaks of the creation of everything.
    2.Then, in 1:3 – 1:13 has to do with forming. Days 1 – 3 use verbs of formation.
    3.1:14 – 1:31 has to do with filling. Days 4 – 6 use verbs of filling.
    4.Then, it is announced that he finished them."

    GE:

    Yes, isn't it beautiful! A frien of mine years ago showed me something akin. First the waters ; then it its parallel the waters were filled; Then the earth / eart-animals; air / air inhabitants. Or something like it.

    But most striking to me, is this 'parallel'
    "In the beginning God"/"In the beginning the Word";
    "God finished, blessed, sanctified, rested"/"The Amen (Last) the Beginning of the creation of God". History and creation begins with, in, and through, Jesus Christ Author; and Jesus Christ its Amen, its Finisher and Accomplisher, in being Vindicator, is the Creator of all the works of God.
     
  19. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    A further tip, Where the six days of Genesis stand at the beginning, these NEW Testament days of creation stand at the end (where the Beginning actually stands).
     
  20. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    For Bob Ryan: "And I, if I be lifted up, shall draw ALL THINGS unto me." I want to show you the true and real Day of God's Finished creation. ('All men', here, is wrong and out!)
     

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