New Wine in an Old Wineskin

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by superwoman8977, Nov 24, 2008.

  1. superwoman8977

    superwoman8977
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    Okay alot of you know me, most of you think you know me but dont. I have been told I have left wing ideas, etc. Alot of my beliefs have come from all I have been through in the last almost 15 years ever since I accepted Christ at a Newsboys Concert in June of 1995. Since then I have been through seeking the Lord and running away from Him. I have also had now 2 children out of wedlock and been through forclosure, reposession, divorce, death of a child and cancer. I have been blessed from the Lord beyond belief and then there are other times where I have ran away from the Lord, but through it all He has brought me back, most of the time on my knees. I know last winter I ran from God. I was mad my marriage ended, angry that I was in a place where I knew no one and I was 4 hrs from my family..I jumped into a relationship with a man I thought was my Mr. Right and I ended up pregnant. Now I still consider this baby even with the circumstances it was conceived in a miracle baby because she has overcome so much. In 2004 I was diagnosed with thyroid cancer and have since undergone 2 rounds of chemo and radiation and was basically told I wasnt going to survive, the cancer was too far advanced. I surprised the docs by engaging in the fight of my life...to save my life. My illness ultimately destroyed my marriage and we lost our home and our 2 cars but I am still alive although I admit there are days I ask why God why am I alive?

    I have been doing alot of study in the word on the whole new wine in an old wineskin. In this group there are alot of people I have noticed that want to keep the old wineskin and refuse to allow new wine in new wineskins to change things, to maybe adapt things. I see women in here who would never step out of their comfort zone. This has been on the subjects of working moms vs stay at home moms, whether women can be pastors, whether women can wear pants, I even saw a post I dont know whether it was here or in another group about men who wear earrings. Some of these posts I read and I am like come on lets get real what is the ultimate purpose of the Lord here-- At least I have been finding out in all I have been studying is that the Lord desires a realationship with you...thats the bottom line.

    Today in Sunday School we watched a video about a little boy. This little boy was getting hungry and his mom was snoozing so he decided to make himself a bowl of cereal. He climbed on the counter and got the bowl and the spoon and then went to the pantry and got the cereal and then went into the refrigerator and there were 2 things of milk--- a half gallon carton and a gallon jug. The little boy chose the gallon jug and poured the contents into the cereal. What the little boy didnt realize was that the milk in the gallon jug was spoiled. He took a bite and spit it out and realized the milk was nasty. He dumped the bowl of cereal in the garbage and was ready to try again. This time he took the milk from the half gallon carton and poured some in the gallon jug and then went to pour it on another bowl of cereal--- you can probably guess what happened---the little boy took a bite and spit it out again. He tried one last time and this time poured the good milk from the half gallon carton onto a bowl of cereal and he was able to enjoy the cereal!

    I use that illustration to describe us. Pastor was talking today after the video about people being so close-minded -- he went on to describe spine issues and rib issues. Spine issues include knowing that Jesus is Lord and thats its all about a relationship with Him. Rib issues are issues that dont have to "be there" for a church to function. "Rib issues" are things like women working or staying at home, King James Version only or not, Women wearing pants, Wearing jeans to church in general, Praise Band or Organ and Piano or even no music at all, communion open or closed-- who should be allowed to partake of communion, Women being pastors

    Pastor went on to comment that churches are experiencing a decline in church membership since 1990. And when he asked why it was amazing at how many people said because Christianity in general has turned into a list of rules. Its like we have skeedaddled right past who the focus needs to be on and instead focused on the "rules". I know I am not a conservative person by any means but I also know that if we want others to come back to the Lord its not about the sin as people keep throwing at me, but its about getting to their level. We have to abandon the close-mindedness and instead open our minds to change --- There are times when I am reading the posts in here and I am like wow I so have another opinion on this, I so see another way..am I wrong, no I am not if we all thought the same way, the work of the Lord would never get done.

    I loved the article about the pastor that went into the bars with shot glasses advertising his church. I just heard the other day about a pastor that is preaching in California at an outdoor shopping mall as shoppers are shopping for the holidays. There were people that didnt want him preaching there so they tried to get him removed. He went to court and pleaded his case and the judge who was a Christian, denied the injunction. I went to a church that served pizza and beer, pop and wings with my friend in Ohio. Unorthodox you say? Well its working--those pastors are touching lives and planting seeds. Those pastors are going against the grain but they are bringing people into the kingdom by getting down on their level. After I ran away from the Lord last winter and spring it was a friend at the complex that I moved to that invited me to a coffeehouse night at her church. picture 30 20 and 30 somethings--singles, professionals, married, some kids, some not having kids getting together with starbucks coffee and bibles. Complete with a praise band who played praise and worship and acoustic music it was so awesome no one judging another just about a bunch of seekers from all different walks of life coming together to seek the Lord together. It was on one of those nights that I came back to the Lord on my knees with my "church family" around me and I repented for going away from the Lord, for having sex outside of marriage and all the things I had run away from. Never in my walk did I feel the presence of the Lord as I did that night on my knees. It was so cool then because I got to do something to symbolize my coming back to the Lord I took a coffee mug and I dumped the coffee out of it, the coffee was cold and icky and I grabbed another cup and poured hot fresh coffee into it. Crazy, you say? Well for me it was symbolization..the old was being thrown away and the new was being put in its place.

    This is the year 2008, actually almost the year 2009. Times have changed, ideals have changed and those of you holding onto that old cofffee need to get rid of it. Open your hearts and your eyes and ears to change. If we want to touch people, touch hearts we need to get down to their level, we need to stop holding onto the ideals of the past and open up to ideals in the future. We need to get rid of the old wineskins and renew ourselves. Its not about all the legalism all the well can we drink alcohol, can we wear a bikini its about reaching people. Its about emptying their old cups of coffee and giving them a new cup of fresh hot coffee.

    Luke 5:37-39 sums it all up for me "And no one pours new wine into old wineskins if he does the fresh wine will burst the skins and it will be spilled and the skins will be ruined 38 But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins.

    So go ahead and blast away but I know the Lord has shown me if I want to plant seeds and share the good news I have to get rid of the old thoughts and move onto the new.
     
  2. Thinkingstuff

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    I'm probably not the one to ask, but really what have you been trying to get at? Over many post you keep saying you're born again (which if the case I'm excited for you) however, there seems to be a lot of rationalization about choices you've made. We've all had hard times and made mistakes. We are relieved that Jesus forgives us and grants us grace and opportunities for a better next time. The point of salvation is not only to give us eternal lives but to make us new creatures where we fight against poor choices and sin. However, none of us say we are right when we do wrong none of us justifies it. We repent (which means totally turning around and telling God you're right, we're wrong.) I believe in grace and mercy and it should bestowed on all we meet. it doesn't mean that everything is ok or there aren't consequenses for sin. I don't want to go attack you. However, I will not agree bad choices are good. You're post are kind of confussing because I don't know if you trying to get people to agree with you or to sympathize or to attempt to show us the error of our ways but it seems you're trying to get at something.
     
  3. Jim1999

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    I like the illustration of the lad pouring the old milk in a new bowl. On the rest, I have no comment except to suggest you purchase this book. It will help you tremendously to rightly understand the Christian walk and change.

    The Fight by John A White, InterVarsity Press. It is inexpensive and availble on the net for about ten dollars in paperback.

    Cheers, and bless,

    Jim
     
  4. superwoman8977

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    The point I am getting at is that we are driving away people because of all the "rules" of Christianity. You cannot wear your hair like this, cannot wear these clothes, have to do this, have to do that..why do you think people are running away from God? I am 31 years old A CHILD OF THE LORD, and yes have made my share of mistakes. But I have come back. When people come to the Lord their bad habits arent going to stop immediately..they arent going to become new creatures in Christ overnight...its a process.... I give up....I know in my case and in the cases of my friends its about a relationship with the Lord. I still have friends who smoke and drink and stuff and are Christians..God is working on them but people have started to judge them.
     
  5. annsni

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    New and old wine and wineskins doesn't mean being culturally relevant or changing our ideas to fit with the times. The passage is speaking about the Old and New Covenant. We must be very careful to not take a passage of Scripture and twist it to fit our own desires. We must read it understanding what GOD wants us to hear.

    I do agree that there are those things that are essential to our beliefs. Unfortunately, it's not just about having a "relationship" with Christ because Christ calls us to much more than friendship. He calls us to holiness too. He calls us to sanctification - to a growing more and more like Christ. If rules didn't matter, then what is written in the Bible can mostly be thrown out. However, Scripture tells us how we are to conduct ourselves as believers. IF we are children of the living God, then we will walk in a way that's worthy of Him. We will not want to do those things that are opposed to what He teaches us. What He expects of us. Yes, we will fall but we will not gloat or glory in that fall but we will come repentant to Him, confess and move on to try harder.

    Look at it this way, what if that boy ate that cereal with the bad milk and said "Well, I tried. I did my best and that's what's important."? Will that make it that he'll be OK or will he still get a tummy ache? Yeah - he's still going to reap some consequences even though he was very sincere in trying.

    I will not change the Gospel to make it more relevant for today. That is wrong. That is unbiblical. I will not go serving beer in church because that's going to help me identify with the unsaved because that can also be a huge stumbling block to so many who struggle with alcohol. You say to wear a bikini - God says to dress modestly. You say to serve alcohol - God says to not cause anyone to stumble. Why must we become the world and embrace the world to bring the Gospel to them? Why are we changing God to something like them? Isn't He attractive enough as the Creator of the universe who came to them to save them from their sin? Yes - they have sin. We do a disservice to people when we sell them the "Come to Jesus - He wants a relationship with you - It's going to be awesome." because Christ says that to follow Him, we must take up our cross. It's not an easy life being a Christian. We will struggle, we will fall. We will face persecution and temptation. But in going through all of that, we will become more and more like Him. THAT is what I'm communicating to a lost world. Not peaches and roses.
     
  6. annsni

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    Sorry - double posted!
     
    #6 annsni, Nov 24, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 24, 2008
  7. annsni

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    Yikes - even TRIPLED posted!
     
    #7 annsni, Nov 24, 2008
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  8. Thinkingstuff

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    Why is being a Christian superior? Why would one want to be saved? You are a Child of the Lord. What does that mean to you? What is the purpose of Relationship with the Lord? Why does Paul rejoice when he said he can suffer? Why Does Paul say in Romans with regard to living life as you want that "God Forbid?" I like the Newsboys but what is the point of being a Christian? To live guilt free or to be guilt free?
     
  9. annsni

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    We only drive people away from Christ if we give other rules for being saved. If a person truly comes to the Lord wants to continue to dress immodestly, do things contrary to the Lord's commands, etc., then I'd highly question if the Holy Spirit is truly in this person.

    God has rules. It's there in the Scriptures. If it were not important, He wouldn't tell us. He doesn't say to wear our hair a certain way or to wear certain clothes but He gives us guidelines for both. He DOES tell us that we have to do this and we have to do that. And as believers, we are to help other believers to grow in the grace and the knowledge of the Lord. It's not our place to say "You can't wear that" but it IS our place to say "Is that the best choice in light of God's glory and His Word to us?"

    If people are scared away from God because He expects His children to live holy, then that's not His problem - or ours.
     
  10. annsni

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    I heard a great analogy on this subject.

    You're going on a plane to go to Europe. You get on the plane and the flight attendant hands you a parachute. She tells you "This is going to make your flight so much more pleasant. Wear it and enjoy the flight." So you wear it. You begin to find it a little uncomfortable. Other passengers didn't put one on and they're sitting all comfortable and yet your back is now beginning to hurt. After a time, once your back is all sweaty and sore, you finally decide to take it off.

    Now instead of the flight attendant telling you what she did above, she tells you this: "I'd like for you to put this on. It may not be the most comfortable thing in the world but in the case of a crash, it will save your life." So you put it on. You're getting uncomfortable and you see others who are not wearing it who ARE comfortable. But you decide not to take it off because it could safe your life - that's it's purpose. It's not to make a nice flight but to save your life.

    Now, which do you think was the more wise thing for the flight attendant to say? You KNOW wearing a parachute is not going to be comfortable. But there's a purpose in the discomfort.

    In the same way, we give people a very poor view of God when we say "He just wants a relationship with you." because He wants more than that. We will be tried - sometimes through the fire. Does that make someone who goes through a hard time a good feeling about that relationship? It makes it about us and OUR comfort and happiness rather than God's glory.

    Just something to think about.
     
  11. Jim1999

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    Or simply, don't pour the old milk in the new milk and expect good tasting food. There is a reason the new wine is poured into the new cask.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  12. North Carolina Tentmaker

    North Carolina Tentmaker
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    Superwoman, I appreciate all you have gone through but I am afraid you are missing the point of the parable of the wineskins badly.
    Like all parables there are several things to learn here, but one of them is not to discard the traditions or old ways. The old ways, the old wine, and the old bottles should be preserved, look at verse 38.

    When a new believer comes to Christ and they are filled with a new spirit, if we take that new believer and subject them to your dreaded lists of rules, if we turn the wonderful grace they have discovered (or more accurately has discovered them), if we turn that grace into legalism or ritual then the bottles will burst and both the bottles and the wine shall perish. I think you are in agreement with me on that. Christians need to grow in grace and only with time comes understanding.

    The other side of that argument is that you don’t take old bottles, or old garments and try to mend their holes with new cloth. You want to challenge the religious establishment, I understand that. You said:
    That is not what this parable says. While we should not attempt to conform the new believer to the same standard as the old believers neither should we pour out the old wine. Look at verse 39. The old ways are better, and once the new believer grows in Christ they will understand that. The gospel of Jesus Christ is not new or hip. It doesn’t need praise bands or coffee cups. It is unchanged since handed to us by the sacrifice of Christ himself. You can dress it up however you want, it is relevant, it does matter, but it is also unchanged.

    Don’t let the religious establishment crush your youthful enthusiasm, but also don’t let your enthusiasm supplant wisdom. God does not change with our culture and while our presentation might, our message must not. You want to use praise music and coffee to spread the gospel, that's great, go for it. But make sure that you have not changed the gospel itself. Sin is still sin and to follow Christ is still a call to holiness.
     
  13. Thinkingstuff

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    Is there something wrong with this thread techincally not discussion?
     
  14. Jim1999

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    Something is haywire here! I posted twice and only one post shows, Ansni posted once and it came up 3 times..The final post shows on the list, but doesn't come up at all..........

    Cheers,

    Jim

    Wait,,now they show up........................
     
  15. annsni

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    I had noticed in "new posts" that Jim and CarolinaTentMaker had both responded but I couldn't see it. I had to hit "reply" in order to see their posts but now I can see them. I had a hard time posting and it kept timing out with an error so I'd hit "submit reply" again - that's why I had 3 responses. I edited two of them.

    Very weird things going on in this thread.
     
  16. Jim1999

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    Scripture does say that two things are better than one,,,,,,,,,,,,,but I don't recall ever reading three.....lol

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  17. Marcia

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    I disagree that rules are driving people away from Christianity. While some churches may seem to have rules (I would think they would probably be more the small town and rural pentecostal type churches or maybe some extreme fundamentalist churches), most churches do not have "rules." My church doesn't, nor do any of my supporting churches (churches that help support my ministry). I speak in a lot of churches all over, and have never encountered a church with rules. The idea that Christianity has rules is a misperception sometimes brought on by a bad church or by a person who uses this as an excuse to not go to church.

    I think the main problem with churches today is that they are not preaching the gospel; they are preaching watered down stuff or feel good stuff. Eventually, people realize they can get that elsewhere - no need to go to church for it. This is why the mainline denominations are losing people. When you are so much like the world, why not just choose the world?
     
    #17 Marcia, Nov 24, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 24, 2008
  18. John Toppass

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    Superwoman8977 wrote:
    "Pastor went on to comment that churches are experiencing a decline in church membership since 1990. And when he asked why it was amazing at how many people said because Christianity in general has turned into a list of rules. Its like we have skeedaddled right past who the focus needs to be on and instead focused on the "rules". I know I am not a conservative person by any means but I also know that if we want others to come back to the Lord its not about the sin as people keep throwing at me, but its about getting to their level. We have to abandon the close-mindedness and instead open our minds to change --- There are times when I am reading the posts in here and I am like wow I so have another opinion on this, I so see another way..am I wrong, no I am not if we all thought the same way, the work of the Lord would never get done."



    I understand what you are saying, but I can not find any scripture that would suggest that we are to change or even water down the characteristics of living a Christian life.
    There is no advantage in changing how we as Christians should behave, into a behavior that allows others to be comfortable in choosing to live in an unChristlike manner.
    We should not condemn them either.
    We should be encouraging them to join us as heirs of the Kingdom of God.

    If we (Christians) change our behavior so as to blend in with the world, how would those in need of salvation be able to tell that the one and only way to receive salvation be on a different path than what the world is offering them now?

    Becoming a Christian IS all about change. We have become heirs in the Kingdom of God thru his son Jesus Christ. We are also commissioned as ambassadors of His Kingdom to spread his word so that others can choose to join. Being a Christian is not about this short time in this world, but it is about spending eternity with our Lord.

    Paul wrote that he must put aside this world daily. I seem to have the need to do this hourly. (at least)

    I know from experience that changing behavior can be difficult but God has promised us that we will not be tempted greater than we can overcome. God also says He will provide an escape from temptation if only we will use His strength when we are weak.
    God forgives us each time we wander and come back. God wants us to ask forgiveness of our sins, not because he does not know what we do,(we are already forgiven) but because God wants us to understand what we are doing.

    Our choice to continue to do the same sins over and over does come with consequence. I have learned that each time I ask God for that strength to overcome temptation, God provides. The more I ask for His strength, the easier it is to overcome and it seems that I suffer that temptation less often.

    God is the same yesterday as He is today and will be tomorrow. God is constant and consistent in a very inconsistent world.

    I pray for your familiar struggle, I hope you do not find this post in a negative way but I pray that you see I write from experience. My experience may not be like yours but to me it was ever bit as traumatic.

    Change can only be made with God's strength; use it; He wants you too.
     
  19. mparkerfd20

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    So someone else here listens to Paul Washer sermons too. :)
     
  20. annsni

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    Is THAT who taught that? I don't remember if I heard it from my pastor or someplace else but I thought it was a great illustration of the problems with teachings that make Christian life seem wonderful. When life gets hard, it's easy to ditch Christ because He was supposed to make my life great - but it's not! Ya know?
     

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