News: Less Conservative Baptists Meet in Charlotte This Week

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Cindy, Jun 23, 2003.

  1. Cindy

    Cindy
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Cindy.JPG>

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2000
    Messages:
    1,277
    Likes Received:
    0
    (Charlotte, North Carolina-AP) -- A less conservative
    alternative to the Southern Baptist Convention meets this week
    for three days of worship and workshops.
    About four-thousand members of the Cooperative Baptist
    Fellowship are to gather Thursday in Charlotte, North Carolina
    for their annual meeting.
    The fellowship welcomes female preachers and doesn't issue
    official positions on homosexuality. By contrast, virtually no
    Southern Baptist churches call women to preach. And at their
    annual meeting last week, Southern Baptists backed a new outreach
    to help gays become heterosexual.
    The coordinator of the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, the
    Reverend Daniel Vestal, says he believes that "Baptists should be
    known because of what they are for rather than what they are
    against."

    [ June 30, 2003, 11:45 AM: Message edited by: Squire Robertsson ]
     
  2. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2000
    Messages:
    17,527
    Likes Received:
    0
    Would somebody who is affiliated with the CBF please tell me one example of how they are the least bit conservative at all, let alone less conservative. The truth is that they are just a haven of liberals. They should pull out of the convention and start their own denomination where the Bible doesn't matter and nobody cares a lick about morallity.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  3. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2002
    Messages:
    6,647
    Likes Received:
    187
    What sort of examples would suffice for you? I’m not sure what you consider “conservative”.

    There are some liberals in the CBF. There are some moderates in the CBF. There are some conservatives in the CBF. The CBF is full of Christians who are working to serve God according to the scripture and their convictions.

    1.) Most CBF people are not associated with the SBC anymore.
    2.) CBF has intentionally avoided becoming a traditional denomination – instead, it is a Fellowship of churches working together for the purposes of missions and education.
    3.) Why should CBF want to start a denomination where “the Bible doesn't matter and nobody cares a lick about morallity” since CBF people believe the Bible and are concerned about morality? :rolleyes:

    Your contempt for the CBF and your willingness to misrepresent them is duly noted. If you care about your Bible and morality, then please read up on the commandment about bearing false witness and then go talk to people who are associated with the CBF and talk to them about their views. You may not agree with them, but I believe you will find that they do think the "Bible matters" and they do have moral concerns.
     
  4. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/cjv.jpg>

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2001
    Messages:
    2,859
    Likes Received:
    0
    There are many people within the CBF whose theology is indistinguishable from that of the SBC. There are many people within the CBF who make me look conservative (no, I'm not kidding).

    The CBF works to be a big tent with room for all baptists, and hasn't become a denomination because it wants to avoid the mistakes of the old SBC. The SBC went from a cooperative mission-sending organization to a top-down denomination. The CBF hopes to avoid repeating that error.

    Personally, I think there is a place for gboth. If the CBF stays true to its purpose, it's a handy thing to have. I like the idea of a common meeting ground for baptists. On the other hand, I prefer a little more accountability and theological uniformity. Hence, I do not deny the SBC their right to become whatever they wish; and I'm likewise grateful for the Alliance.

    Joshua
     
  5. bobfrgsn

    bobfrgsn
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2003
    Messages:
    330
    Likes Received:
    0
    quoting Baptist Believer:

    What a gracious answer to such the ungracious comment made by Joseph Botwinick. And also a very good description of CBF. I knew you had to be a BGCT type Baptist. So many people make uninformed statements because they have never looked at a situation.
     
  6. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2000
    Messages:
    9,621
    Likes Received:
    310
    ADMIN NOTE FROM THE FORUM SQUIRE
    I consider suggestions to
    as tantamount to an accusation of lying. Such accusations will not be tolerated.
     
  7. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2002
    Messages:
    6,647
    Likes Received:
    187
    as tantamount to an accusation of lying. Such accusations will not be tolerated. </font>[/QUOTE]I did not intend to say that Joseph was lying… only that he needs to take stock of what the Bible says about bearing false witness and then actually investigate CBF and speak truth about it than make careless accusations that CBF members do not care about the Bible or morality.

    I apologize for any confusion my lack of clarity may have caused.
     
  8. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2000
    Messages:
    9,621
    Likes Received:
    310
    I will not split hairs or debate semantics.

    Personally, I view SBC politics from the outside. Now will someone please explain why I should not treat them like I treat the WWE.
     
  9. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2002
    Messages:
    6,647
    Likes Received:
    187
    Forgive me, but who is the WWE? :confused:
     
  10. NarrowWay

    NarrowWay
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2003
    Messages:
    143
    Likes Received:
    0
    So, basically, it's allowed to make any unsupported derogatory statements on the board but it's not OK to call someone to task for those statements? BTW, what is the WWE?
     
  11. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2000
    Messages:
    9,621
    Likes Received:
    310
    WWE: the new name of the WWF after the World Wild Life Federation took Vince MacMahon & Company to Federal Court charging copyright and trademark infringement. World Wildlife won their case and World Wrestling changed its name.

    So, far I've only seen opinion from "supporters" of the CBF. If the characterizations in the initial post to this thread are valid, then from my perspective Joseph's comments are valid (I realize of course on this point YMMV). Mind you, this is not the first time the CBF has come up as a topic of discussion on the Board.
     
  12. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2002
    Messages:
    6,647
    Likes Received:
    187
    So far I've only seen a claim from Joseph that "the Bible doesn't matter" to the CBF and "nobody cares a lick about morality". That's mere opinion - and very poor opinion since several CBF supporters who posted in response do seem to care about the Bible and morality. I'd say that's evidence! But where is Joseph's evidence to support his accusations about CBF people?

    I certainly hope you can appreciate that Baptists can form a fellowship that allows churches to practice autonomy regarding social issues. Furthermore, a belief that women are called by God to pastor is held by many Baptists to be a valid interpretation of Paul's writings and the teachings of Jesus. Acceptance of homosexual unions is much less common among Baptists (and CBF folks!), but there are people who sincerely believe churches should received homosexuals based on their understanding of scripture.

    Perhaps Joseph could rework his comments to direct them against certain CBF people who he does not believe are concerned about the Bible or morality instead of making sweeping judgments.
     
  13. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2000
    Messages:
    9,621
    Likes Received:
    310
    Yes, I can but then I also expect them not to piggy back on a group that holds to a different set of positions on these issues.
    In both of these examples, people may be sincere in their belief, but IMO that just makes them sincerly wrong. These examples of difference are basic enough to me that I only feel the obligation to mark and avoid them. In both examples, to get to their position, to my mind one must set aside the clear meaning of words and usages of language.
     
  14. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2002
    Messages:
    6,647
    Likes Received:
    187
    Ah, here’s one of the issues. The CBF does not use a creed or confession and does not require churches or individuals to adhere to a certain theological stance. As far as I know, the CBF does not hold a “set of positions” on these issues.

    I affirm that women are called of God to serve as pastors because of the writings of Paul. It has been discussed in other forums and I have cited a conservative and scholarly reference (“Pauline Theology: Ministry and Society” by E. Earle Ellis) that clearly explains my position on the subject. As for homosexuality, my position is well known here – I strongly disagree with Joshua.

    But that wouldn’t be the CBF. That would be some individuals, some churches and the Alliance of Baptists.

    Sometimes, but if you read Ellis’ work, you’ll see that your opinion is not necessarily valid regarding women in vocational ministry. :D

    [ June 23, 2003, 04:09 PM: Message edited by: Baptist Believer ]
     
  15. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2000
    Messages:
    9,621
    Likes Received:
    310
    I know the following will be a gross over simplification of the matters at hand, pray forgive me and let's get on with the discussion.

    If Mr. Ellis' position is predicated on a premise of cultural relativity (that was then this is now), then in the matter of a woman holding the what is commonly refered to as a pastoral office, I must needs disagree with it. Mind you, there is also the matter of how one defines "vocational ministry".
     
  16. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2002
    Messages:
    6,647
    Likes Received:
    187
    Agreed. This is somewhat off the subject, but I wanted to stress that those who hold views that may be dissimilar to yours and Joseph's do not necessarily throw out the Bible and a moral code. It is a false assumption.

    It is not. It is based on the whole message of Paul in regard to church life and the role of women in the church in particular.
     
  17. bobfrgsn

    bobfrgsn
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2003
    Messages:
    330
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dear Joseph,

    Here is a link that will help you understand the CBF a little better. You are wrong in your assessment and should inform yourself on the matter. When one is uninformed one is always in danger of bearing a "false witness." You should produce evidence to support you claim and if you can't you should apologize for you will allegations.
     
  18. bobfrgsn

    bobfrgsn
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2003
    Messages:
    330
    Likes Received:
    0
  19. C.S. Murphy

    C.S. Murphy
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2002
    Messages:
    2,302
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dear Joseph,

    Here is a link that will help you understand the CBF a little better. You are wrong in your assessment and should inform yourself on the matter. When one is uninformed one is always in danger of bearing a "false witness." You should produce evidence to support you claim and if you can't you should apologize for you will allegations.
    </font>[/QUOTE]I like what Joshua said on page 1 about the cbf

    There are many people within the CBF who make me look conservative (no, I'm not kidding).

    I have saw this to be true as well and i feel that Joseph's claims were valid and quite fair.

    Murph
     
  20. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2002
    Messages:
    6,647
    Likes Received:
    187
    Except that that's not all Joshua said... He mentioned the diversity of views in CBF. Therefore Joseph's blanket assertions are not valid and not fair.

    There have been a significant number of pastors in the SBC who are 5-point Calvinists, but it would be foolish and inaccurate for me to say that Southern Baptist pastors are 5-point Calvinists.

    [ June 24, 2003, 12:41 AM: Message edited by: Baptist Believer ]
     

Share This Page

Loading...