News: Women are not accountable to God according to Dorothy Patterson

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by bobfrgsn, May 10, 2003.

  1. bobfrgsn

    bobfrgsn
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    The greatest repercussions to the Family Amendment came from the phrase, “A wife is to submit graciously to the servant leadership of her husband” based primarily on a flawed exegesis of Ephesians 5:21-25 (See Chapter 10 for an extensive discussion of this passage). Though traditionalist’s claim to be “biblical,” the word “graciously” is nowhere in the passage. Does this additional adverb mean that wives must not say, “O.K. I’ll do it,” and frown, but rather they must smile and be sweet as they submit?

    Dorothy Patterson was questioned by a reporter about female submission in the amendment she helped frame: “As a woman standing under the authority of Scripture, even when it comes to submitting to my husband when I know he’s wrong, I just have to do it and then he stands accountable at the judgment,” she replied.[24]

    Think about that statement. For a wife to claim that she is not accountable to God for a decision required by her husband, but only he is responsible, is close to theological heresy! This viewpoint contends either the husband knows best, or if not, he alone will answer to God.

    This hierarchical view of marriage, made popular by Bill Gothard’s “Chain of Command” model, has authority flowing from God to Husband to Wife to Children. Many wives love this approach because it relieves them of responsibility. As the family leader, the husband is the one accountable to God for the family, while the wife is accountable to her husband. We have now in this theory an ironic reversal of the traditionalist interpretation of the Fall, where Eve and women are blamed for sin.

    Quoted from this article: http://www.christianethicstoday.com/Issue/044/How%20Baptists%20Got%20Into%20This%20Debate%20Over%20Women%20By%20Audra%20E.%20Trull%20and%20Joe%20E.%20Trull_044__.htm

    [ May 22, 2003, 11:52 AM: Message edited by: Squire Robertsson ]
     
  2. Helen

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    Bob, I understand your take on this, having seen a lot of your other threads, but this is not how I, personally, see it.

    I have been married to a man whom I tried desperately to please for 20 years. I never could. The result was some deceit on my part (how much did you spend for that? would get an answer almost automatically with 10% of the price chopped!), and a great deal of defensiveness.

    I am married now to a man who seriously treats me as his better half -- a position I strongly dispute! But the result is that I am totally confident of his leadership because he talks to me and we discuss just about everything and I know my opinion is important to him.

    Having been on both sides of the fence, I can say that the woman who is married to a man who is bossy, domineering, and even asking her to do what is wrong, is in the worst position imaginable. No matter what she does, the family is going downhill fast. So what should she do? Increase the dissension and problems by challenging her husband and usurping his place as head of the household? Or try her best to keep things together and pray God will change him?

    I chose the latter. It didn't work. But, looking back, I'm glad I made that decision. It did leave me not guilty for the destruction of our family when he left with another woman. And it left the kids at least sure of one parent.

    Yes, we are accountable always for the decisions we make -- all of us. But I am ever so grateful that God judges the heart. He is also the only one who knows all the circumstances.

    Given all of it, two God-loving and obeying Christians in marriage is the best it can be -- and that's pretty wonderful I have found! But so often only one really is loving God and wanting to obey Him and the other is either marginal or not there at all. This makes a marriage so very difficult. The roles given by the Bible do help to at least buy time in a family for God to work in the heart of the stubborn one.

    We do our best. Instead of being critical, why not pray for us?
     
  3. Headcoveredlady

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    Bob,
    I will have to respectfully disagree with one thing you said. You said that women love the heirarchal view of marriage. I think this is simply untrue as submission to another person is not easy for many women.
    And by saying that we are not accountable is not accurate either. We are acountable to God in how we submit to our husbands. Submission to another person usually means the death of the flesh.
     
  4. bobfrgsn

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    Helen, thank you for your response. I am pleased for you that you have found a mutually satisfying marriage. Sounds like a true application of the Ephesian scripture ... beginning with 5:21 rather that 5:22. Mutual submission one to the other in all things in my opinion is the best marriage. In our situation (32 years married)I wear the "pants" in some things and my wife in others. We are not overly exercised as to whose "role" is to be dominant. I, personally, know of very few sucessful marriages when male headship is pushed. Many desolve into legalism and most fail and sadly they do not produce very sucessful children. Father does not always know best ... mother does not always know best .. sometimes the whole family has be in on the decision making process and hang-on sometimes the children know best. What a wonderful miracle from God is a family that talks, plans and mutually trust one another.
     
  5. FearNot

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    This hierarchical view of marriage, made popular by Bill Gothard’s “Chain of Command” model, has authority flowing from God to Husband to Wife to Children. Many wives love this approach because it relieves them of responsibility. As the family leader, the husband is the one accountable to God for the family, while the wife is accountable to her husband. We have now in this theory an ironic reversal of the traditionalist interpretation of the Fall, where Eve and women are blamed for sin. I will address your comments about mrs Patterson later today, but i will start with your flawed Scriptural knowledge. The concept of a submissive wife came from Scripture, not Mr. Gothard. You can look at Gen 3:16, then you can look at Eph 5:22-24 and Col 3:18.

    You also claimed that the woman is to submit to men because Eve sinned first. That too is wrong. Please read I Tim 2:9-15. Verse 13 clearly states that the manis in authority because he was created first, then Eve.

    There is a order to all of this. Jesus is head of man, and man is head of woman (I Cor 11:3). A husband is head over his wife as Jesus is head of the church (Eph 5:23). What does this mean? It means that a husband is to love his wife even to the point of giving up his life to save his wife if needed. A husband is to guide his wife to make correct decissions, Jesus knows all, man does not, that means it is the husbands duty to learn Scripture without stopping to make sure he makes decission for his family that are in God's will. A husband is to make sure his family is taught the Scriptures as Jesus taught his truth to everyone. There is great responcibility placed on the husband, one that should not be taken lightly.

    Oh, and concerning the idea that women love the submission to their husband because it releaves them of the responcibility. Every submissive wife I know don't feel that way. They are submissive because Scripture tells them to and they want to joyfully be obediant to God. They have loving husbands that treat them with respect and love, because the husbands are following Scripture that tells them how to treat their wives (Eph 5:23-33, and Col 3:19) A women can not be in submission by force, and a husband can not be forced to love.

    God designed the model for marriage, not man.

    In reference to what you posted while I was typing. No father does not always no best, and neither does the wife, as you said. In God's model of marriage a husband who is loving will sometimes do what his wife reccomends, and do so gladly. Also a wife will go along with what her husband thinks right and be supportive. In a relationship their are going to be times that husband and wife think differently and someone has to have the final word, God deamed that to be the husband. A loving husband will consider his wife's wishes and sometimes go with what she wants over his desires.
     
  6. bobfrgsn

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    Dear Fear Not,

    Please note that I am not making any argument in my posting about Dorothy Patterson. I am quoting from the article that I reference following the excerpt. I do not agree with your understanding of Scripture, however ... but I do not want to pursue this argument. For me and mine it is settled and we have a happy and very sucessful marriage without all of the stuff about what God intended. God, throught His Holy Spirit leads all of us to understand truth ... that is ... truth for our personal walk and others can certainly understand the same truth in a different way ...
     
  7. FearNot

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    Are you saying what is true for you is not necissarly true for me? That sounds pluralistic. If that is what you are saying, then in your belief there is no absolute truth. I hope that is not how you feel.

    I am not interpreting those Scriptures. They are very clear towards the meaning. Every Scripture I gave you is straight forward with no room for twisting. like "Wives be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord." Eph 5:22 there are no ifs and or buts to this passage. No space for alternate interpretations. Either a wife submits to her husband or she does not.
     
  8. bobfrgsn

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    Sad to say Dear Fear Not but you are interpreting the scripture for yourself .. and drawing conclusions based on your belief in the leadership of the Holy Spirit ... I congratulate you this exercise of the "priesthood of the Believer." Great Biblical and Baptistic principle. I, on the other hand, given this same freedom in Christ do not interpret the Scripture in precisely the same way as you ... And, I believe, that we are both lead by the same Holy Spirit. A survey of many Scriptures held by evangelical will reveal multiple intrepretations ... like the Pentecostal/Charismatic vs. certain Baptistic groups. Is this pluralism or just being lead by the Spirit of God?
     
  9. Squire Robertsson

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    Bob, FearNot's interpertation is based on a widely held rule of hermenentics. This rule in the main states:
    And in this case to interpert the passage in another way than the one FearNot put forward is to deny the meaning of words and the validity of language.
    That being said, because of the Distinctive of the Priesthood of the Believer, how this passage is applied is up to how God leads a given believer. That simply follows a dictum of practical hermeneutics
    I further add this caveat to the last
     
  10. Haruo

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    The notion that there is no space for alternate interpretations in Ephesians 5:21ff is beyond the ridiculous. The thread to date proves the contrary if proof be needed.

    This was the topic in the premarital counseling session my fiancée and I attended last Wednesday, and I am happy to say that our prospective officiant's position on this is closer to Bob's than to Mrs. Patterson's.

    Ephesians 5 speaks clearly (to me and my pastors and my fiancée, anyhow) not to the hierarchical nature of relationships, but to their mutuality and reciprocity. It is about the obliteration of the distinctions of precedence and power between man and woman, between parent and child, between master and slave. It is about the duty of the person in power to practice kenosis in the manner of Christ. It is about (indirectly) servant lordship and the last being first.

    That the Southern Baptist Convention doesn't see this... well, it saddens me a bit but doesn't surprise me at all.

    Haruo
    what can I say, I'm Northern ;)
     
  11. bobfrgsn

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    Squire, I appreciate you erudite answer ... I respectfully disagree with your conclusion. Application depends on interpretation.
     
  12. FearNot

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    Well, I am just shocked that people think they can get a different interpretation out of a Scripture that is so plain and clear. I know several people who hold to your beliefs, it isn't that they interpret it differently, they just don't want to submit, and that is what it boils down to. My exgirlfriend was one of those people, and that is one reason she is my EXgirlfriend, she held her desires over Scripture. She had an issue with authority, not my authority, but accepting God's authority in issues she didn't agree with. It was easier for her to claim things like she was under God's grace to excuse herself from her pet sins, that she had no plans to correct. I am a sinner, and Scripture corrects me. When it does I have to submit myself to God's authority and His superior intelect.

    Titus 2:5 "to be sensible pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be dishonered." The word for subject is hupotasso (minus the symbols over the two o's). This word is translated to subordinate, to obey, be under obedience, subdue unto, subject, and submit self unto. The word can not be interpreted to mean something else than that. You can not change the meaning of the word, no matter how much you want to or dislike what you think the implication of it is. Also notice the end of that verse, if you do not obey this command, you are dishonoring God's word. This is not my command, God made it.

    If y'all would read "The Family, unchanging principles for changing times" by Mrs (Dr.) Patterson you will learn how the submission truely works. Submission is a choice for the woman to make. Obviously your wives have chosen not to submit, and you have chosen wives who do not plan to submit to you. I feel sorry for y'all if the two of you become deadlocked in a situation where your opinions differ. Mrs. Patterson knows how the problem would be solved. She knows sometimes Dr. Patterson will go with what she feels is right in a situation, and sometimes he will go with his judgement. She illiquently paints a portrait of their mutually loving marriage devoted to God.

    You do not have to obey God's word, you can pick and choose what you are willing to obey and what you are not. I myself find it a lot easier to conform my will to God's now, rather than have God ask me to explain my rebelious spirit later.

    I hope you receive this with an open mind and heart. We have far too many people outside the church trying to discredit Scripture, we believers don't need to help them out. Please look at your own posts, not one of you holding the opposite view than I have given one Scriptural support for your possition. That is because you can't. You haven't provided any support other than your thought/feelings. The fact that you have no Scriptural support should tell y'all something. I hope you realize that and pray about it.
     
  13. bobfrgsn

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    Dear Fear Not, thank you for you good response. I am pleased that you have found a way that works for you. I appreciate you comments but still do not agree that there is only one way of understanding and interpreting scripture. In the case of these verses about the place of women and wife ... brother Paul was simply supporting the status quo of his day. Those same circumstances do not prevail today and therefore require a different understanding. You probably will not agree with me .... and that's okay. I have not and probably will not read Ms. Patterson's book because I know enough about her theology (or the theology that Paige allows her to have) to know that I would not learn anything new. I thank God that He does not need help in shedding light on his word and that He is not threatened by different understandings and does not requrie that we all walk in lock step in third rate theological consideration. There are some things that are basic and first rate .. but very few.
     
  14. Squire Robertsson

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    I believe that is what I said in my last observation.
     
  15. bobfrgsn

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    Perhaps I was responding to the quote you included .. I would diasgree that for "a given passage of Scripture there is one intreptation and many applications". Given all of the differing "applications" of various Scriptures .. there must be many diffeing intrepretations. I do apologize if I misunderstood you.
     
  16. FearNot

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    It is too bad you don't want to read her book. She is a highly educated woman. She has atleast one doctorate. She is well versed in biblical languages and theology.

    I thought you might like to read her work since you started this link about her. How better to learn what she believes then by reading what she wrote. [​IMG]
     
  17. bobfrgsn

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    Dorothy Patterson was questioned by a reporter about female submission in the amendment she helped frame: “As a woman standing under the authority of Scripture, even when it comes to submitting to my husband when I know he’s wrong, I just have to do it and then he stands accountable at the judgment,” she replied.[24]

    Dear Fear Not, I know a lot of people who have a least one doctorate whose books I would not read as well as many versed in Biblical languages whose books I would not read. The statement above in bold is pretty clear on where Sister Patterson stands ... or at least where she porports to stand .. I have heard some interesting stories about who really rules the roast in that household .. but those are just rumors and not worth repeating. I am sure she is brilliant in her field ... but I still don't agree with her conclusion as stated above in the article I quoted from an article. Sorry
     
  18. Charlesga

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    I couldn't agree with you more, bobfrgsn. I believe that you are exactly right...the entire context is within the framework of mutual submission, but I respect the right of any Christian to study, pray, and interpret scriputre. Men are also to love their wives as Christ loved the church....how many of us can say we do that?

    Charles
     
  19. KPBAP

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    Amen, Charlega!!!

    ...a side thought----who is a single woman accountable to?
     
  20. Charlesga

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    Good point...maybe someone can answer that for us.
     

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