Nicolaitans and Muslims

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Mark Osgatharp, Jun 10, 2005.

  1. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    In the Revelation, Jesus twice mentioned a religous sect called the Nicolaitans. We are told nothing about the beliefs of this group in the Bible. Though historians have speculated somewhat about them, what little we really know about them comes from the brief mention of them in the Revelation.

    But just suppose that this little known ancient sect had flourished and gained wide popularity. Suppose they took up arms in their cause and subjugated kings and nations, "converting" millions at the point of a sword. Suppose that many of the Nicolaitans became became terrorists, seeking to destory any nation which refused to bow to the Nicolatian god and staging violent demonstrations against anyone who spoke out against them.

    Suppose then that a little Baptist church posted a simple statement on their church sign:

    "This thou hast that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate."

    I wonder what the reaction of the religious world would be?

    Now suppose also that instead of posting the flippant words "The Koran Needs To Be Flushed" on their church sign, that little Baptist church in North Carolina had posted the words:

    "We hate the deeds of the Muslims, which Jesus also hates."

    I wonder what the reaction of the religious world would be?

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  2. Ben W

    Ben W
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    It depends Mark, Moderate Muslims will tell you that the "deeds" of Al-queda prove that those people are not true muslims.

    Many muslims deeds are more righteous than a number of other world peoples.
     
  3. blackbird

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    Mark---it really doesn't matter what any church puts down---the truth from the word from the Word tells us that Jesus "endured such contradiction of sinners against Himself"---(see Hebrews 12:3)----that whatever Bible verse is quoted---it is going to be "contradicted" by a sin sick world---and its quiet obvious that the muslim world IS included in that sin sick world!!! The truth is going to be contradicted!!!! Don't you see that happening???????
     
  4. Joseph_Botwinick

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    1. Almost sounds a bit like the "Christian" Crusaders.

    2. I think the point is we don't have a clue who the Nicolatians are, and if the Bible does not tell us, and we have nothing about them from history, what good is it to speculate.

    AND

    3. As Ben pointed out, not every Muslim wants to convert people by the sword. As a matter of fact, many of the terrorists today have more of a political agenda than they do religious and merely use the teachings of Islam to justify their terror, much the same way the KKK uses the Bible to justify slavery, etc...

    Anything, even the Bible, when in the hands of evil people claiming religious zealotry, can be twisted and used for evil.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  5. LadyEagle

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    History, both past & present, shows how "moderate* Islam is. In recent times, one only has to look at the different countries in Africa which have fallen by the sword of Islam to see just how *moderate* Muslims really are when they are made to choose between taking up the allah akbar cause or being denounced as infidels. IMO, Islam is the religion of the prophetic anti-Christ.

    http://www.vicmord.com
     
  6. Gold Dragon

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    1. Almost sounds a bit like the "Christian" Crusaders.

    2. I think the point is we don't have a clue who the Nicolatians are, and if the Bible does not tell us, and we have nothing about them from history, what good is it to speculate.

    AND

    3. As Ben pointed out, not every Muslim wants to convert people by the sword. As a matter of fact, many of the terrorists today have more of a political agenda than they do religious and merely use the teachings of Islam to justify their terror, much the same way the KKK uses the Bible to justify slavery, etc...

    Anything, even the Bible, when in the hands of evil people claiming religious zealotry, can be twisted and used for evil.

    Joseph Botwinick
    </font>[/QUOTE][​IMG] Joseph, you have been pleasantly surprising me these last few days.
     
  7. LadyEagle

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    Historical Fact: The Crusades were initiated by Muslim invaders.

    Revisionist History: The Crusades were carried out by Christians against Islam.
     
  8. Joseph_Botwinick

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    History shows how "Crazy" any religion can become in the hands of evil men. In recent times, one only has to look at Jim Crow laws, slavery, the Shoah, just to see how evil men can pervert the teachings of the Bible to contribute to their evil political agendas. In history, one only has to look at the Crusades, the fate of Tyndale, to see what happens when extremist crazy so called "Christians" are able to label others as heretics and then commit violence against them, burning them at the stake. IMO, Islam, any religion which denies Christ, and any sect of "Christianity" which perverts God's Word for evil agenda is full of the spirit of anti-Christ. May we, as the elect of Christ, always be careful to never pervert the truth to encourage extremism and violence against innocent people as has been done in the past by some crazy, extremists terrorists who claimed the name of Jesus.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  9. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Historical Fact: The Crusades were initiated by Muslim invaders.

    Revisionist History: The Crusades were carried out by Christians against Islam.
    </font>[/QUOTE]LE,

    We have been through this before. Unfortunately, the high and mighty "Christians" went on not only to slaughter Muslims, but also Jews and other sects of Christianity. They were simply terrorists with a Christian label.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  10. Artimaeus

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    I know what you mean but I wouldn't call their deeds "righteous". The best real Muslim is still worse off than the worst real Christian. The sign was lowclass, tactless, rude, and mean. I have zero respect for the Koran and yet I am embarrassed to be associated with people who would post such a sign.

    Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
     
  11. HankD

    HankD
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    We don't make much of a distinction between radical Islam, moderate Islam and the majority of peace loving moslems.

    Similarly they don't fully comprehend that historic "Christianity" (you know, the Church of the crusades, the Spanish and Roman Inquisitions, etc) is any different than the terrorist Islam of Jihad.

    We are a fallen race, religion makes no difference, in fact it seems to inflame the hatred of one another.

    I have read of a certain Nicolas (Acts 6) who, supposedly, might be the originator of the Nicolaitans.

    Personally, I thought it was a stretch.

    Acts 6
    5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:

    The semantics of the name can be "ruler of the people" which seems a slam against "clergy".

    But FWIW to anyone here is the Catholic (who have the most to lose by this theory) Encyclopedia blurb RE:the Nicolaitans and early church fathers which seems to indicate the practice of licentiousness by this sect:

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11067a.htm

    HankD
     
  12. av1611jim

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    There is a reason some folks make no distinction between "radical Islam" and "moderate Islam".

    That reason is; {B]misunderstanding[/B] what Islam is all about.

    It would do all christians (nominal to extreme) to get informed.

    To start your journey to understanding, go here:

    www.understanding-islam.com

    The following is taken from that site.

    The Prophet (pbuh) is reported to have said:
    Ibn Umar reports that the Prophet (pbuh) said: I have been sent with a Sword [and have been directed to fight the people] until only the One God, Who has no partners is worshipped. Blessings have been ordained for me, under the shadow of my spear; and disgrace is the fate of all those, who oppose my message. [Therefore, I shall fight them all.]

    Just an FYI for my brethren here. Perhaps you don't fully understand the GOAL of Islam?

    As to the Nicolaitains? Not much info about them, but they are definitely NOT Muslim. Mohammed came along centuries later than the passage in Revelation.

    Some have said (from the etemology of the word) that it refers to the "doctrine" of the "Rights of the People". I don't know.

    In HIS service;
    Jim
     
  13. LadyEagle

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    From the Internet:

    The First Jihad War occurred in Mecca and united the Arabs under the Islam religion year 632.

    The Second Jihad was the war against the capital of Christianity, Constantinople (now Istanbul) that succeeded in 1453. It was this war that provoked the rise of the Crusades in 1097 in the defense of Christianity.

    The Third Jihad War is what is happening around the world today. Its goal is to destroy Israel, the West, Christianity and the USA so that all the world might come under the power of Islam and where Islamic shariah law is upheld and practiced.

    This is the Third Jihad.
     
  14. HankD

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    And that is exactly what the "Crusades" and "inquisitions" were, "Jihads" bloodbaths to bring the world under the power of the Pope and the Church of Rome all in the name of Christ.

    And it will continue on until He returns.

    That is not to say that I am opposed to the defense and destruction of suicidal fanatics (both foreign and domestic) before they destroy (or attempt to destroy us). Two of my sons are active duty military men, another fought in the Gulf War and I am a Vietnam Era veteran.

    My point is that 1) the religious west does not have a lily-white past (Crusades,Inquisitions) in terms of terrorizing the innocent. You know the pot-kettle syndrome. What is worse, having one's head sliced off or being burned at the stake?
    2) Moslems don't make a distinction between "Catholic" or "Baptist", just as we don't between Sunni or Suffi. It doesn't help to say, Catholicism isn't the real thing.

    Apart from that and IMO, presently, It's not so much about religion but defending my country from all enemies both foreign and domestic no matter what the delusion motivating them.

    HankD
     
  15. Mark Osgatharp

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    Artimaeus,

    You said,

    Would it be "lowclass, tactless, rude, and mean" to post a sign which said,

    "We hate the deeds of the Muslims which Jesus' also hates"?

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  16. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    Joseph,

    You said,

    You mean like Mohammed, the founder of Islam did? Can a religion be more righteous than it's author?

    You said,

    So are you suggesting that the Koran is not inherently evil and inherently hateful to the Lord?

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  17. Joseph_Botwinick

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    I suggested no such thing. The Koran denies Jesus as Lord, and therefore, is full of the spirit of Anti-Christ. This does not mean, however, that all who follow it will be terrorists. On the other hand, the Bible is perfect, innerrant, and Holy. But, in the hands of evil people, could also be twisted and perverted to justify evil and anti-Christian theology as well.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  18. Joseph_Botwinick

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    So are you suggesting that the Koran is not inherently evil and inherently hateful to the Lord?

    Mark Osgatharp
    </font>[/QUOTE]Mark,

    I see the mistake I made now, and understand why you misunderstood what I meant. I was not very percise in the way I said that. I apologize. Please see my previous post for a clarification.

    Joseph Botwinick [​IMG]
     
  19. Mark Osgatharp

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    Joseph,

    You said,

    Yes, all who follow the Koran will be terrorists because the Koran advocates terror against all who oppose Islam. Those who claim they are "moderate" Muslims are just like those who claim they are "moderate" or "liberal" Christians - they are not Muslims at all.

    As long as the Koran is around Islamic terrorism will be around. Therefore, though it may not be the most tactful way to put it, the Koran, indeed, needs to be flushed. Or, as I would rather put it, I hate the deeds of the Muslims, which thing Jesus also hates.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  20. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Mark,

    Many Moderate Muslims would argue the exact opposite of what you just stated. On the other hand, I am sure their are some terrorists under the Christian banner who would also argue that those who don't interpret the Bible their way are not true Christians. Tell me this: If a sect of Christianity were to advocate violence and rebellion towards our parents using a passage from the Bible, like where Jesus said:

    Matthew 10:34-36

    ...would you also flush a copy of the Bible down the toilet?

    I wouldn't. I would just realize that these are a certain group of evil men who have perverted the message of the Bible and rebuke and correct the errant teachings and their hate with the Bible.

    Joseph Botwinick
     

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