No Gifts No Power

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by plain_n_simple, Jul 31, 2014.

  1. plain_n_simple

    plain_n_simple
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,887
    Likes Received:
    5
    " But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."
    Your definition of the word "perfect" can result in a true believer, or an evil heart of unbelief. The Spirit working through a believer, or flesh producing dead works.

    The motivation to operate in the gifts, to lay hands on for a miraculous healing is love, to help others unbelief who witness it, and to destroy the works of the devil. It's what Jesus did. "He who believes on me will do the works I do." Jesus gets the glory because man cannot heal, but Jesus heals through willing vessels. He came to give life.

    The Pharisee and the Cessationist have the same heart, it's not focused on love for others, but self. Both use scripture to deny the works of Christ then, and today.

    The reaction to hearing the sick being healed supernaturally by Jesus, was and still is, that it's not possible. It's a foolish thought even today.


    When a miracle did happen, and they could not deny it, the Pharasees immediate response was to assign it to Satan. They were angry and jealous. It exposes the lack in their ministry compared to Jesus. They could not rejoice over the blind seeing. Disqualification was the immediate thought as they were sin focused.

    The Cessationist does not believe miracles happen today through believers as they did in the early church. If you practice the same today, it has to be Satan. They cannot rejoice at the thought of the sick being healed. Disqualification is the immediate thought.

    Jesus told the Pharasees that Satan does not cast out Satan.

    The Cessationist really is saying since we have the bible, Jesus stopped casting Satan out, changed His mind and now Satan is casting Satan out.

    The Pharasee spoke evil of, mocked and killed Jesus, the son of David
    The Cessationist assigns others in the Body of Christ to damnation.
    It's bad fruit.
     
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    17,080
    Likes Received:
    49
    NO one here would deny that the Lord cannot heal/have miracles done etc IF they are part of his will and purposes, we just cannot see in the Bible how those offices/gifts to individuals to do such as the Apostles could remained in the body!

    What passages do you rest your case upon?

    And does that mean the moody/Graham/Edwards/calvin/Luther etc of the christian church were all weak spiritually, and teaching a defective Gospel message?
     
  3. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,183
    Likes Received:
    207
    As usual you distort our position. God can and God does still heal the sick, answer prayers, and performs wonders. Cessations do not deny this at all.

    What cessationists deny is that men are so gifted today to do this. Take a look at Genesis through Malachi (4000 years) and show us how many common or uncommon believers are so gifted? Look at the history between the apostles and the counterfit revival movement in the 19th century and show us how many were so gifted?

    Moreover, you don't know the difference between filling and baptism in the Spirit. Filling can be found before Pentecost but the baptism cannot. Yet "power" is characteristically connected with "filling" not with the baptism in the Spirit. You may quote Acts 1:8 but the power there is not about miracles signs or wonders, but the power in the gospel being preached.
     
    #3 The Biblicist, Jul 31, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 31, 2014
  4. plain_n_simple

    plain_n_simple
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,887
    Likes Received:
    5
    Acts1 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

    At the day of Pentecost in Acts 2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.This is the power mentioned in Acts 1:8

    Then read on brother:
    17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

    18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

    19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

    20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

    Dreams, visions, prophecy in the last days before Christ returns.

    This shows us that the gifts are still in effect at the last days before His return. It is for mankind's beneift that miracles are done.

    A minister of the Gospel without the Holy Spirit confirming his words with signs and wonders, has no power with his words.

    1 Corinthians 2:3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

    4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

    1 Corinthians 4:20
    For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.

    1 Thessalonians 1:5
    For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

    Luke 4:32
    And they were astonished at his doctrine: for his word was with power

    Luke 4:36
    And they were all amazed, and spake among themselves, saying, What a word is this! for with authority and power he commandeth the unclean spirits, and they come out.

    Mark 16:20
    And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
     
  5. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,183
    Likes Received:
    207
    You not only pervert our positions but you pervert the scriptures as well. No one from Genesis to Revelation has ever been saved by a gospel which came in "word only" but in MIRACULOUS REGENERATING POWER - not miracles, signs and wonders as you are falsely interpreting God's Word.
     
  6. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,183
    Likes Received:
    207
    The baptism in the Spirit did not occur previous to Pentecost as every gospel account is a future tense prediction, not a past tense reality.

    However, previous to Pentecost there was POWER without Pentecostal gifts. Go learn the difference between being "filled" versus being "baptized" in the Spirit then come back to the table to talk about "power".
     
  7. plain_n_simple

    plain_n_simple
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,887
    Likes Received:
    5
    Your position is already perverted, it has no love or concern for others. Only legalism.
    The miracles themselves do not save in the salvation of the soul. The miracles establish authenticity for the speaker, that God is truly with him. They help unbelief, they are a benefit to the sick. Jesus did the same, you reject Him. Without the gifts, the speaker has no confirming evidence from God, just a clanging bell. This is why people continue to leave your churches. There is nothing there for them.
     
  8. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,183
    Likes Received:
    207
    You misrepresent my response as a lack of love for others when it is really the very reverse, it is a hatred of false doctrine that harms others.


    So, are you condemning all Pre-Pentecost people to hell because they had no such gifts but DID HAVE THE GOSPEL (Acts 10:43) and were born of the Spirit (Jn. 3:3-11). It seems that it is your doctrine that is unloving, and condemning of God's people.

    Not only so, but it is the devil's leadership that makes personal attacks rather than responding to the truth or falsehood of a doctrine. A Biblical defense or condemnation determines the source (1 Jn. 4:6). You cannot defend your position with Scripture so your only alternative is to attack the person who is exposing your false doctrine.
     
    #8 The Biblicist, Aug 1, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 1, 2014
  9. plain_n_simple

    plain_n_simple
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,887
    Likes Received:
    5
    There is no condemnation in my posts. All those I speak of are in the Body of Christ. They will make it to heaven. You feel it is an attack because you lack some tools Jesus gives us and are rendered powerless. It is a challenge to rise up to the ministry of Jesus, not a condemnation if you are not there yet. You take it as condemnation because you have a condemnation/sin focused spirit. You presume others condemn you because you condemn others as a regular practice. That is not the Spirit of Christ. There is in you a Spirit that wants to preach the true Gospel, but it is quenched by your mindset.
     
  10. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,183
    Likes Received:
    207
    Note the personal pronouns with accusations clothed in pious language.

    Only God can is qualified to make such claims about others.

    Again, you ignore the Biblical problems I placed squarely in front of your face, simply because your position is anti-biblical. Again, there is no pentecostal gifts prior to Pentecost and yet there is POWER in regeneration of Old Testament saints (Jn 3:3-11). Thus your whole theory about power evangelism in accompaniment with Post-Pentecostal gifts falls flat on its face.

    The counterfeit miracle movement in the last days was predicted by Christ and easy to spot. It's spiritual unity is by common experience, not common truth, and the Spirit of God is the Spirit "of truth." It's unity is in spite of truth as it spreads over denominational boundaries but without changing errors and without uniting in truth.

    The Counterfeit miracle movement despises God's Word as FINAL AUTHORITY and supersedes it by subjecting it to EXPERIENTIAL AUTHORITY in direct contradiction to God's Word - Isa. 8:19-20.

    The Counterfiet miracle confirms another God (United Pentecostal Church, Word of Faith movement, etc.) another Jesus (Hagin, Copeland) another gospel (justification ultimately by works) and another spirit which violates all the tests of a prophet, violates the Word of God creating nothing but confusion.

    Today, true Christians walk by a greater miracle, they walk "by faith" and NOT BY SIGHT!
     
    #10 The Biblicist, Aug 1, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 1, 2014
  11. plain_n_simple

    plain_n_simple
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,887
    Likes Received:
    5
    The power given to prophets under the Old Covenant were given to individuals and not all.
    The preachers of the Old Covenant did not have the new, greatest commandment until Jesus.
    Under the New Covenant of Grace, all believers have this power available to them for the preaching of the Gospel. It is out of obeying the New Covenant command to love others as yourself that is the motivation to desire the gifts to heal, prophecy, pray in Jesus name.

    How can it be counterfeit when a blind girl gets prayer and can now see? The devil healed her? Satan casts out Satan? God gave her blindness and Satan gives sight?
     
  12. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,183
    Likes Received:
    207
    According to who? Tell that to Caleb who was not a prophet or a priest or a king but the Spirit was with him in POWER as he subdued giants.

    Don't you understand that spiritual death is spiritual SEPARATION from God due to sin (Isa. 59:2)???? Don't you know that God IS life/light and to be spiritually separated from him IS spiritual death. Don't you understand that the opposite to spiritual separation is SPIRITUAL UNION and that is effected by the new birth/quickening as a creative act of God (Eph. 2:1,5,10)???

    Your dispensational salvational soteriology has condemned every person prior to Pentecost to spiritual separation = spiritual death and hell. THERE IS NO SALVATION FOR ANYONE AT ANY TIME OUTSIDE OF CHRIST before or after Pentecost. It is REGENERATION/quickening that places a person "in Christ" in SPIRITUAL UNION with Christ as God (Eph. 2:10). Hence, between Genesis and Revelation there are only two possible kinds of humans (1) those in the flesh - spiritual separated from God - Rom. 8:8; or (2) those in the Spirit - spiritually united to God by spiritual indwelling - Rom. 8:9.

    Don't you know there can be no "spiritual" UNION between man and God unless there is an actual UNION INSIDE OF MAN where his spirit is in UNION with God's Spirit???? Hence, spiritual UNION is being indwelt by the Spirit as that is the only possibly way there can be any spiritual union between man and God and that is the only possible way NOT TO BE SPIRITUALLY SEPARATED from God.

    You have one kind of salvation before Pentecost and another kind after Pentecost but the Bible has but ONE way before (Mt. 7:13-14: Jn. 14:6) and it is the SAME way after (Acts 4:12). ONE gospel before (Acts 10:43: Heb. 4:2) and the SAME way after (Gal. 1:8-9, 3:5-6). One Savior before (Jn. 14:6) and the SAME Savior after (Acts 4:12). One solution for spiritual separation = spiritual death before (Jn. 3:3-11) and the SAME solution afterwards (Eph. 2:1, 5, 10). There is NO SALVATION for anyone at any time OUTSIDE OF CHRIST and if you are not indwelt = spiritual union by the Spirit of God YOU ARE NONE OF HIS - Rom. 8:9.

    The favorite trick of Satan - always children. If Satan wants people to celebrate his unholy days - he makes it appeal to children and then we are opposed to children if we are opposed to his paganist worship days and practices.

    YES - Satan casts out Satan and opposes Himself as who do you think all these CONTRADICTING religions originate with but doctrines of demons - 1 Jn. 4:6.

    YES - Satan heals little children and adults, causing them to speak in ecstatic utterances and fall down and wiggle on the ground within Hinduism, within African witch craft religions.

    YES - he heals and performs every single solitary wonder, sign and miracle that Christ did on every age with REAL POWER in order to deceive them by "LYING" wonders.

    Look at what you appeal as your final authority! God's Word? No! Subjective experiences - power - but powerful experiences come equally from Satan as they do from God except for one difference - God's use is to CONFIRM the truth revealed in Scriptures whereas Satan's use "LYING" wonders in order to contradict written revelation and deceive people into thinking their FALSE DOCTRINES come from God.
     
    #12 The Biblicist, Aug 1, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 1, 2014
  13. plain_n_simple

    plain_n_simple
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,887
    Likes Received:
    5
    No, I rely on this simple truth, Jesus said the devil comes as a roaring Lion, to steal kill and destroy.
    Jesus came to give life, sozo, healing deliverance salvation
    Healing does not come from Satan, a fake healing maybe
    You are calling evil good, and good evil.
     
  14. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,183
    Likes Received:
    207
    Satan could turn an immaterial staff into a living snake and did so through Pharoah's religious representatives. They could turn water into blood. Who is going to "heal" the wound of the Beast in Revelation.

    Do you think Judas exercised miracle power? Jesus said he never was a true believer, but a "demon" from the beginning and was chosen by the Father to be the "son of perdition."

    Those in Matthew 7:22 who are cast into hell made claims of casting out demons and Christ never denied any of their claims.

    Again, you avoid the plain scriptures place again in front of you in the last post. Your authority is yourself, your own experiences and they simply do not pass the test of scripture.
     
  15. plain_n_simple

    plain_n_simple
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,887
    Likes Received:
    5
    Turning a staff into a snake is not healing the sick. Is it an evil thing or a good thing when the sick are healed?
     
  16. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,183
    Likes Received:
    207
    this was an authentic verifiable true miracle regardless if you like it or not. I guess you never have studied the Hindu god men. They healed people all the time. We had one here in Oregon for some years and his people were not only healed, but spake in tongues (ecstatic utterances) and were slain in the Spirit falling down out of control under the power of the spirit.

    Who heals the ungodly demonish "Beast" from his wound in Revelation???
     
  17. plain_n_simple

    plain_n_simple
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,887
    Likes Received:
    5
    A good surgeon
     
  18. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,183
    Likes Received:
    207
    Well, thank God you don't go to the extreme that many Pentecostals do, claiming it is a lack of faith to see a physcian or use medicene
     
  19. plain_n_simple

    plain_n_simple
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,887
    Likes Received:
    5
    lol, ive repented of that
     
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    17,080
    Likes Received:
    49
    ALL that wew can take from a proper exegesis of all of those passages is that peter saw pentacost and the time of Acts as being the fulfillment of the prophecy of Joel, and that the Apostles had been given from jesus authority to do mighty works in his name!

    Are you claiming that you or others have those same Apostolic gifts today?

    That there are modern day Apostles/prophets within the church?
     

Share This Page

Loading...