No man perishes for want of an atonement

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Skandelon, Aug 17, 2011.

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  1. Skandelon

    Skandelon
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    Here is a quote from Charles Hodge in his systematic theology:

    In many other threads here on the BB it appears that most Calvinists would differ on this point as it has been argued that those who die in unbelief don't perish for their unbelief alone, but because their sin was not atoned.

    What do you think? Do you disagree with Hodge on this point?
     
  2. Skandelon

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    Alright, well I'll just reference this post next time the topic of the atonement is raised and Calvinists begin to make the argument that the atonement isn't available to the non-elect. Ok? :)
     
  3. convicted1

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    Bro. Skan, I keep thinking back to the OT and how that the sacrificial lamb, or whatever they used for the atonement of all of Israel, was for that, all of Israel. The atonement was for every Israelite, but only those who chose to believe what the OT prophets told them, actually entered into the Promised Land. It's that way now, Jesus' atonement was for everyone who would ever live on planet earth, but only those who choose to believe God, will get the atonement. If there is such as a thing as Limited Atonement, the ones who perish eternally(failing to believe) limited it themselves.

    So, if I understand him correctly, I agree with what he said. Salvation, and also the atonement, was for all, and offered to all(those who know to doeth good, and doeth it not, that is).
     
  4. Allan

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    Many reformed today would disagree with many of the Reformed of yesteryear on this issue. Many of the reformed believers in the past (like Luther, Melanchton, Coverdale, or Bullinger, and Bucer are some examples) held that Christ's death was indeed for all men, yet applied only to the elect. We find even Calvin himself speaking to this effect in his commentaries.. though I know and agree that Calvinism isn't exactly derived from Calvin himself ..it is noteworthy.
     
    #4 Allan, Aug 18, 2011
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  5. convicted1

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    I find this post very interesting, Bro. Allan. Most of the reformed on here get on to us about how we have changed over the years, but fail to see themselves swaying from some of the main points of reformed theology. I did not know this that you had posted. Thanks for sharing this with me!! :thumbs:
     
  6. Earth Wind and Fire

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    would it interest you to know Hodges views on Slavery as biblical? Do you also agree with that prospective as well?:smilewinkgrin:
     
  7. preacher4truth

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    Yeah, OK, you do that. :)

    Sounds good until you know the Word of God on the matter. None who are saved and come to Christ are non-elect, thus all the saved are all His elect.

    You'll have to keep digging to try and prove Calvinism in error, and in so doing you're providing me many opportunities to dismantle readily your erroneous assumptions that you seem to feel are so heavy and irrefutable. Plainly, they're not.

    :wavey:
     
    #7 preacher4truth, Aug 18, 2011
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  8. quantumfaith

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    :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
  9. Earth Wind and Fire

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    :smilewinkgrin::thumbs::thumbs:
     
  10. Earth Wind and Fire

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    :eek::(:(:( You CANT be serious!
     
  11. preacher4truth

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    Yep.

    Let's not pretend that all of the Reformed somewhere back in "la-la land" all agreed on each and every point of Reformed theology, and thus in turn also pretend today that all of a sudden an alarm is being sounded as if disagreement on some points is something new.

    I would be more concerned about the proof-text methodology that arms/non-cals use than over this attempt to try and understand "elect."
     
  12. preacher4truth

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    ...and by the way, Jesus came to save His elect, and Paul also preached the Gospel for the sake of the elect, for the elect are out there and the elect are the ony ones who would believe the report of the Gospel:

    "Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, descendant of David, according to my gospel, for which I suffer hardship even to imprisonment as a criminal; but the word of God is not imprisoned. For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory." 2 Timothy 2:8-10

    Hodges point is mere romanticism, as only the elect will be saved.

    ** Also note that when Paul said "according to my Gospel" it doesn't imply this was only his "personal opinion." :thumbsup:
     
    #12 preacher4truth, Aug 18, 2011
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  13. stilllearning

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    Hello convicted1

    You said.......
    This is a common mistake, reformed Christians make.
    The “atonement”, indeed “saved” those who accepted it.
    (Every Jew, who followed Moses’s instructions in Egypt, who ended up putting the lambs blood on there door posts, were SAVED!)
    Then they came into the wilderness, where the first generation died, because of unbelief.

    Those that died, did not lose there SALVATION, they were simply chastened to death, because of their unbelief.
    In the same way today, New Testament Christians, can be chastened to death, yet go to heaven........
    1 Corinthians 3:15
    “If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.”

    --------------------------------------------------
    Entering into the Promised Land, was not done for their salvation; But was a reward for their faithfulness.

    Here is what the Bible says about it.........
    Hebrews 3:7-11
    V.7 ¶ Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
    V.8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
    V.9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
    V.10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in [their] heart; and they have not known my ways.
    V.11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)


    and

    Hebrews 3:17-19 & 4:1-3
    V.17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? [was it] not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
    V.18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
    V.19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
    V.1 ¶ Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left [us] of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
    V.2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard [it].
    V.3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.


    and

    Hebrews 4:11
    “Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.”

    --------------------------------------------------
    Salvation is by Grace through faith. It is not something that we “labor” for!

    But we do labor, to be faithful Christians and be blessed and rewarded by the Lord!
     
  14. convicted1

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    Brother, the point I was trying to make is that both sides, A's and C's have differing views that swayed from their forefathers. I meant no malice in that post, just pointing out that both sides have varying views from their predecessors.
     
  15. webdog

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    red herring
    n.
    1. A smoked herring having a reddish color.
    2. Something that draws attention away from the central issue.

    :)
     
  16. Earth Wind and Fire

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    I factor it into the character of the man & how he interprets scripture.:)
     
  17. webdog

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    ...kinda like how Calvin thought we should baptize infants? ;)
     
  18. Earth Wind and Fire

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    I think the physical enslavement of another Human Being & looking into scriptures to justify it has more weight than mere baptism dont you?
     
  19. Skandelon

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    While this is a red herring, in that it has nothing to do with the subject at hand, I would like to point out that Hodge is a well respected Calvinistic scholar, as was Jonathan Edwards and George Whitfield, both of which are said to have supported the idea of slavery. In fact I think this article makes an important point on that very matter:

    Now, can we get back on subject regarding the atonement and how many noted Calvinistic authors don't seem to agree with many on this BB? Which is not that big of a deal except that some here are known to ridicule anyone who represents Calvinism in any other light than the one they happen to be standing in, thus revealing their own views to be more out of the mainstream than those they are belittling. :(
     
  20. Earth Wind and Fire

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    you would not deal with that in the Puritan forum. They are well aware of the differences in viewpoints & prospectives. However I have no interest in this subject matter as Im content in my beliefs.
     
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