Featured No One Can Know if He or She is Elect! Period!

Smarty pants :tongue3:

I was just going to ask this myself! LOL!

If you're saved you're elect. Duh!

 

I don't know ANY Calvinist that has confidence in the flesh! Quite the opposite! How ridiculous!

 

Was toooooo! :tongue3: :smilewinkgrin:

 

Quite possibly the funniest response of the year, lol.

Thanks for that.

God bless.

 

This is a fair and reasonable statement....The argument isn't whether a Calvinist can't have confidence....They can.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that the average Calvinist is in a constant state of fear about their election. I DO NOT DOUBT!!! that the average Godly honest Calvinist has a very high level of assurance about their salvation.

I think there is confusion here though. The point being made by non-Cals (IMO) is this:

Calvinists can (within their system) believe that plausibly with a HIGH degree of probability that they are indeed "elect".
Put differently, within the Cal system, there is sufficient room for any given Calvinist to believe with a high degree of probability that they were indeed "chosen" and "elect" prior to the beginning of the Universe towards salvation..............

But (to keep the factions from talking past one another) that isn't the question to the Arms/ non-Cals.

Non-Cals believe that there IS, SHOULD, and MUST be...a way to KNOW and OBJECTIVELY without question that one was "elect" and that they were saved and chosen before the foundation of the world.

This is not simply "confidence" (which we don't doubt the average Calvinist possesses)...nor is it a personally held belief that one is sujectively "assurred" of....but an objective and undeniable "proof-positive" that is not questionable. Not on ANY level.

From a sheerly "DEDUCTIVE PROOF" stand-point.....Calvinism does not offer that assurance but rather appeals to either:
1.) A probabalistic belief gleaned from viewing one's "works" (not that they are trusting in "works" for salvation mind you........but for their "evidence").
and/or
2.) An internal witness from the Holy Spirit
a.] regarding item 2.........the Arminian must insist that there is still no "objective" way (within the Calvinist schema) of "knowing" that one is elect since there might possibly be confusion about whether the Holy Spirit is witnessing internally with them or not. This is fundamental. A Calvinist might "believe" that the Holy Spirit has instilled some confidence in their salvation..........but, there is no way of "knowing" that their beliefs and subjective perceptions and feelings are indeed the work of the Holy Spirit or not....They can only "assume" or "believe" (with probability) that it is indeed the witness of the Holy Spirit.....

What evidence, then, would they use to submit that that internal witness was INDEED the Holy Spirit and not mere confusion? Such as Charismatics and other groups who are confused about whether they are being moved by the "Holy" Spirit or rather "another" one?.........................................They would appeal to their "WORKS".

That's the argument of the non-Cal as it stands......and I do not think that any Calvinist on this board has (as of yet) properly engaged it. I do not think there is a proper rejoinder to this which is consistent with Calvinist Theology...If there is, I would be interested in hearing it. So far, it's been a game of circling each other.

 

Hi Darrell:
That's a circularity though........I think if you read your post closely, you might see that.

Arms (I say "Arminians" for brevities sake) don't deny that "assurance" is POSSIBLE. Indeed, we believe it is. But it isn't sufficient when the question is this......and I repeat for any Calivinist who doesn't understand this yet:

HOW do you know?

Alternatively.....

WHAT EVIDENCE! do you have that you are properly one of those to WHOM this is addressed in the FIRST PLACE? These verses are WRITTEN TO the "elect".......so how then, do you know that God had YOU PERSONALLY in mind when he inspired the Apostle to write it?

I know that "assurance" is possible, but my assurance doesn't stem from the same source as a Calvinist's might.

If you understand the question as posed...and answer it, I believe that Calvinist "assurance" (which is probablistic at best) stems from an appeal to their good works.

It isn't......(again)... THAT assurance is possible it's HOW is it possible.

 

:applause::applause::applause:

 

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

Do you agree that we who count ourselves as non-Cals/Reformers/DoG can also begin each day with this same attitude?

 

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

I am not a Calvinist, but I agree that no truly blood bought christian has any confidence in their flesh. I sure don't have any confidence in mine, seeing that I can be prideful, haughty, high-minded, self-loving, boastful, jealous, and other shameful tendencies, at times. It's when these things spring up in me, I ask the Lord to help me with these unchristlike characteristics. When I am weak, then I am strong, in that I call on Him, the Source of my strength.

 

I second this!! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

Brother I've always thought of you that way! Shame, shame, shame on you!

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

Guess what? We agree.

Again, we agree that doing "good works" doesn't necessarily mean you are saved.

Can you and I agree that if a person who has made a profession of faith in Christ isn't doing any good works, based on this passage then that person is in rebellion against God?

And can we further agree that if a person lives a life of continuous rebellion toward God by not living a life that is consistent with a profession of faith, that we should not offer that person any assurance of their salvation simply because they once made a profession of faith?

You have used, in these very posts, words like "sincere" faith or "true" believer... or words to that effect to my best recollection. So you recognize, apparently, there is more to salvation than simply agreeing with what scripture says. Am I wrong here?

 

As part of the WVSDT(West Virginia Space Data Team), we embarked on a trip to the sun. We started out so that we would land at night, so that we wouldn't get burned. While we were there, we actually found a rare breed of dinosaurs that had somehow ended up there. I showed one of them your photo, and they remembered you!!

 

Amazing what happens when people pull on the same side of the rope for a change, huh?

 

I've never met someone holding to reformed theology that didn't have a very deep understanding of their own moral failings/sinfulness. I've never heard a "Calvinist" claim that a Christian will never backslide and they will never fail to do God's works... just the opposite.

The theology of predestination cannot be wrong because it is clearly taught by scripture. Our understanding of how it is applied may be debated, but the theology is clearly taught on many occasions.