No prolonged debate with heretics??

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by The Biblicist, Mar 20, 2012.

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  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    How would you apply these commands by the Apostle to those who you deem to be not merely those confused, learning, or immature but actual heretical teachers???? Is there a point when you should simply refuse to debate them and just sharply rebuke them?

    1 Tim. 5:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
    4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
    5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.


    2 Tim. 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

    2 Tim. 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.


    2 Tim. 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.


    2Ti 2:14 ¶ Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

    1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

    Tit. 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
    10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
    11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre’s sake.
    12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
    13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
     
  2. convicted1

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    Turn to Matthew 18, and that should tell you how to handle them....when all else fails, give'em the "ole heave ho".
     
  3. Moriah

    Moriah
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    There are many who believe you are a heretic with your total depravity beliefs and teaching that God saves people before they believe, to make them believe. Maybe no one should talk to you anymore about the truth, and then you can stay with others just like yourself and get along nicely with them. I keep thinking that there will be a scripture and an argument with you to where you will have the eyes of your heart opened. Maybe by my debating with you, another reader will be strengthened in the Truth by what I say. For I know others strengthen me in the Truth when I read what they have to say.
     
  4. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    Get it right for a change. Don't tell me what I do or do not believe. I know what I believe. I do NOT believe God saves people BEFORE they believe but WHEN they believe and in that act of salvation there are two different aspects that relate to two different relationships with God in regard to "life." Regeneration that brings SPIRITUAL life and justification that brings LEGAL life. They are in a logical cause and effect relationship but simeltaneous in time as in the bullet and hole analogy. Scripture for that logical cause and consequence but chronological simeltaneous act is 1 John 5:1 and the perfect tense "begotten" and present tense "believeth" confirmed by the present tense "is". The logical sequence is that the perfect tense logically precedes the present tense as a completed action precedes a continuous action but the simeltaneous act is confirmed by the present tense "is."

    I never made any direct application in my question. However, you cannot objectively answer a question can you without making it personal! Did I apply the question personally to you? No! Did you apply it personally to me? Yes! So don't accuse me of making things personal and attacking others personally as YOU ARE GUILTY and your post proves it.
     
    #4 The Biblicist, Mar 22, 2012
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  5. Squidward

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    One gentleman who I work with is way out there with his beliefs, also sort of a conspiracy nut, I just nod and move on. Coworkers of mine with solid beliefs have almost wanted to knock his head off because he'll never stop arguing as long as you engage him in a debate. I let him rattle off his drivel, say something "ah, ok," and try to move on to something else or find an excuse to get out of his way.
     
  6. The Biblicist

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    "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still" if God does not open the man's eyes and ears to the truth (Deut. 29:4; Mt. 13:9-10; Luk. 24:45) that man will never see and never hear no matter how much evidence you place before him or how thoroughly you rationally expose and humilate him. Hence, your method is probably the wisest in the long run until that person begins to objectively seek the truth.

    Luke 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
     
    #6 The Biblicist, Mar 22, 2012
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  7. gb93433

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    Titus 3:9-11 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.
     
  8. Moriah

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    I know what you believe too, because you have been debating me and telling me for weeks and months.
    If the person cannot believe on their own without God saving them first, THEN God did not save them when they believed, but saved them and caused them to believe.
    You have done this before. I explain plainly, what total depravity is, and then you come on and say I am wrong, but then you explain it to where it is exactly what I had explained.
    None of what you are trying to explain here nullifies the fact that you believe God causes the person to believe by saving them.
    It is personal.
    We have been debating for months. You have called me a heretic and other false things. Then you make a thread about heretics. You have a lot of nerve jumping on me for not acting like we recognize that this is about you and everyone you do not agree with.
     
  9. billwald

    billwald
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    Then this forum would not exist. Why not? Because the majority of Baptists think the majority of Christians are heretics.
     
  10. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    Do you understand the bullet and hole analogy??? Logically the bullet did create the hole but chronologically they are simeltaneous.

    Do you understand the Old Testament prophets words "Turn us and we shall be turned" or the Christs distinction between "draw" and "cometh." When you reel in a fish it cometh to you.

    The bullet is the cause the hole is the effect but both occur TOGETHER

    If God is turning you you are being turned but God is the cause and you turning is the effect but they are simeltaneous actions that cannot be separated from each other.

    If God draws something to Christ then it is coming to Christ, drawing is the cause and coming is the effect but just as in you reeling in a fish neither reeling or the fish coming can be separated as they occur simeltaneous.

    I Jn. 5:1 presents the same logical cause and effect between new birth and believing. The cause is the new birth while the effect is believing but they are simeletaneous.

    So one does not occur BEFORE the other or AFTER the other in regard to time, chronology but they are SIMLETANEOUS with each other in a cause and effect relationship. This is precisely why Jesus told Nicodemus he must be born again before he told him to believe in the gospel as the cause logically precedes the effect.

    All who call upon the Lord will be saved because God is working in them both to will and to do of His good pleasure. Their heart of unbelieve did not change itself from unbelief to belief.
     
  11. mont974x4

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    I would just add these to the OP:

    Mat 7:6 "Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.


    Mat 10:14 "Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet.
    Mat 10:15 "Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city.


    Act 13:50 But the Jews incited the devout women of prominence and the leading men of the city, and instigated a persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and drove them out of their district.
    Act 13:51 But they shook off the dust of their feet in protest against them and went to Iconium.



    The truths of these passages, and those of the OP, convicted me on this issue a few years ago. I was in the habit of staying in debates far longer than was wise, or more importantly...biblical. It is not our job to convince people of anything. It is only my job to pray for them and tell them what needs to be said.

    Even in the case of ongoing discipleship with someone who is in the church and there to learn we cannot allow arguments to run the show.

    1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called "knowledge"--
    1Ti 6:21 which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith. Grace be with you.


    Paul said he determined to know nothing of people except Christ and Him crucified. How important are the issues we allow to entangle us in useless debates?

    1Co 2:1 And when I came to you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God.
    1Co 2:2 For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.
    1Co 2:3 I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling,
    1Co 2:4 and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
    1Co 2:5 so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.




    I admit that this is an area of ongoing struggle/growth in my life.
     
  12. The Biblicist

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    You sir, are an honest man! I agree with your assessment. The only value I see in this type of forum is to expose the agents and the doctrine of error so that those trying to learn the truth will not be led astray.
     
  13. Moriah

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    It does not matter about what you say is logically and chronologically being simultaneous. The fact remains the same, that you believe a person cannot believe in God unless God saves them first.
    Do you understand Jeremiah 31:18 "I have surely heard Ephraim's moaning: 'You disciplined me like an unruly calf, and I have been disciplined. Restore me, and I will return, because you are the LORD my God.
    When Jesus said people are drawn to him, this is about the remnant. After Jesus was lifted up, all men can come to Jesus and be saved.
    Again, it does not change the facts that I am speaking.
    The Jews were God’s people. All can turn to God now. God’s Word turns people to Him. We are not turned by force, we are turned when WE turn to Jesus.
    2 Corinthians 3:16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
    Did you read that, When ANYONE TURNS to the Lord? God gives us His Son to turn to, but He does not force us.
    Faith comes from HEARING THE WORD. We DRAW near to God because of a better HOPE given us than that of the law; we hope in the perfection we receive through Jesus. See Hebrews 7:18, 19.
    Again, God does not force us.
    Again, simultaneous or not, does not change what I said, nor your beliefs.
    The heart of the unbeliever heard the Word and had faith in what was said.
    All who call upon the Lord will be saved proves you do not have the correct beliefs concerning this. All who call on the Lord WILL BE SAVED. The way you speak, they are already saved before they believe. You now went from simultaneous to WAY BEFORE. Do you not see what you just said?
     
    #13 Moriah, Mar 22, 2012
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  14. Moriah

    Moriah
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    Acts 19:8-9 Paul entered the synagogue and spoke boldly there for three months, arguing persuasively about the kingdom of God. But some of them became obstinate: they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way. So Paul left them.

    Where does our faith come from? Our faith comes from HEARING the word, see Romans 10:14. From hearing the word and being TAUGHT, Colossians 1:5, 7. From continuing in what we have been CONVINCED of, see 2 Timothy 3:14, and being PERSUADED, 2 Corinthians 5:11. In Acts 26:17 Jesus tells Paul he is sending him to the Jews and Gentiles to OPEN THEIR EYES and turn them from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God. How do you think Paul is going to open the eyes of the Jews and the Gentiles? Remember, faith comes from hearing the word, and Jesus sent Paul to preach the gospel. 1 Corinthians 1:18 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel–not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

    Read what Paul says in Romans 16:25-27. Now to him who is able to ESTABLISH YOU BY MY GOSPEL AND THE PROCLAMATION OF JESUS CHRIST, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and MADE KNOWN THROUGH THE PROPHETIC WRITINGS by the command of the eternal God, SO THAT ALL NATIONS MIGHT BELIEVE AND OBEY HIM–to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.

    Paul says that God made the prophetic writings known so that all nations might believe and obey. So again, the word of God tells us that faith comes from hearing. Here are more scriptures that explain how we have to HEAR the message that saves: Acts 8:31: 10:14; 11:14; 16:31; John 9:36; Ephesians 1:13; 4:21; Titus 1:3; Colossians 1:5; 1:23.
     
  15. mont974x4

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    Moriah,
    I am a pastor/teacher/preacher. I do not deny the importance of proclaiming the truth and discipleship. That is not what the OP is about. The issue here is whether or not it is right to spend a great deal of time arguing with someone to convince them that the truth is indeed the truth. Scripture tells us no, we are not to do that. We need to avoid those traps because the do not glorify God and they do not edify the people involved (including those who are just witnessing the discussion). Please refrain from claiming that I have said things that I did not say.

    1Co 3:7 So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth.
    1Co 3:8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor.
    1Co 3:9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building

    If you are called to plant, then plant. If you are called to water, then water. In any and all cases, let God worry about the results because it is His privilege to cause the growth.
     
  16. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    The word "heretic" in Titus 3:10 refers to a "self-willed" man who cannot be turned because they refuse to use common sense and acknowlege the obvious! That is your condition. Look at you quote from Jeremiah 31:18 for proof that is your condition! You cannot even see it is saying EXACTLY what I have been trying to illustrate to you in so many ways:

    'You disciplined me like an unruly calf, and I have been disciplined. Restore me, and I will return, because you are the LORD my God."

    How will he return??? "RESTORE ME and I will return." How has he been disciplined? "YOU disciplined me....I have been disciplined."

    Look at the cause versus consequence relationships that are spelled out for you in the very verse you chose!!!! You couldn't see it if it was a barn placed right in front of your nose!

    Prove from the context of John 6 he is talking about any "remnant" or any special type of salvation that no longer exists! You are now preaching "another gospel" which Paul denies there is or ever was and he takes us back all the way to Abraham to prove the same gospel preached to Abraham is the same gospel preached now (Gal. 3:6-8) and that Moses preached the same gospel then as we preach now (Heb. 4:2). This is what you are forced to do, you are forced to INVENT another gospel, another way of salvation, another Savior in order to escape the clear condemnation of God's Word.

    John 12 in context has reference to the GENTILES who were desiring to be brought to Christ and the words "all men" refer to all men without distinction as between Jews and Gentiles as "in Christ" there is neither Jew or Gentiles. The "all" men in John 12 is the very same "all" men in John 6:37,39 or ALL who have been given to Christ being the very same ALL that do come to Christ and being the very same ALL which Christ will never lose (Jn. 6:39) and being the very same ALL that Christ will raise up to the resurrection of eternal life (Jn. 6:39,40,44) being the same "all" or "EVERYONE" that has been taught by the Father and comes to Christ (Jn. 6:45).

    You have no facts! You have nothing but perversion of scriptures.

    Look at the Greek term translated "word" in Romans 10:17! It is "rhema" not "logos." Rhema is the word of COMMAND as described by Paul in 2 Cor. 4:6.

    No one said he did! He gives you a NEW believing heart (Ezek.36:26) that is willing to do his will (Ezek. 36:27). You don't like Ezekiel 36:27 becuase God uses the words "CAUSE YOU" in verse 37 do you?

    It is worthless to talk to you simply because you have no spiritual abililty to even understand the simple gospel of Jesus Christ but you invent ANOTHER gospel for pre-cross people and especially Jews when the Bible openly and definantly denies your other gospel or way of salvation (Heb. 4:2; Acts 10:43) and Paul says emphatically he preached NONE OTHER THING in regard to the gospel as did MOSES and the prophets preach:

    22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:

    You repudiate Paul when he says the very SAME gospel was preached by Moses and to the children of Israel in the wilderness as was preached by Paul to the Hebrew Christians:

    16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
    17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
    18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
    19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
    1 ¶ Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
    2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that


    However, you understand nothing of this passage because you have some other gospel, some other way of salvation being preached under Moses to Israel before the coming of Christ when this text flatly exposes your perverted gospel.

    You contradict Peter when Peter says clearly and explicitly that no other Christ and no other gospel was preached under the former prophets before the coming of Christ:

    Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

    No you preach some other gospel, some other Christ and some other way of salvation for your "remnant" heresy doctrine and so you come under the Curse of Paul in Galatians 1:8-9 who denies there is any other gospel, never was and never will be. You would have Paul placing God under this curse for preaching another Gospel as Paul in the very same letter says that God preached the gospel to Abraham (Gal. 3:8) when just previously saying that Abraham gospel faith is the model for us today (Gal. 3:6-7). No, you would have God preaching ANOTHER GOSPEL to Abraham and ANOTHER GOSPEL being preached to Israel under Moses right up to the time of Christ.

    You don't even know the true gospel and that is why you INVENT another gospel for your so-called "remnant" and for those living prior to the coming of Christ.
     
  17. Moriah

    Moriah
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    Relax. I just posted truth, and did not say you did not agree.
     
  18. Moriah

    Moriah
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    You have explained exactly what you do. I would say that is an accurate description of yourself.

    No, that is what you do. You say you do not agree with me when I explain total depravity but then you turn around and say what I said.
    THIS IS ABOUT SOMEONE WHO ALREADY BELIEVES IN GOD AND WANTS GOD TO CHANGE HIM. The Bible does not say God indwells people to cause them to believe.
    I easily prove it with scripture.

    Matthew 10:6
    Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.

    Matthew 15:24
    He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

    Acts 3:26 When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways."

    Romans 15:8 For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God's truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs

    You are the one preaching another gospel.
     
  19. DHK

    DHK
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    You will have to explain that one. I have only heard you deny the depravity of man.
     
  20. Moriah

    Moriah
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    I never said man did not have a depraved nature. I said TOTAL depravity, as taught by the reformed group is NOT biblical.
     
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