No taking up cross - no heaven ?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by xdisciplex, Jun 2, 2006.

  1. xdisciplex

    xdisciplex
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    1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

    1Co 6:9 - Idolatry is here placed between fornication and adultery, because they generally accompanied it. Nor the effeminate - Who live in an easy, indolent way; taking up no cross, enduring no hardship. But how is this? These good - natured, harmless people are ranked with idolaters and sodomites! We may learn hence, that we are never secure from the greatest sins, till we guard against those which are thought the least; nor, indeed, till we think no sin is little, since every one is a step toward hell.

    What exactly do you think does this mean?
    Does this mean that if you're a christian and do not suffer then you're not doing it right? This sounds like you have to do works to go to heaven and to stay saved. :confused:
     
  2. BobRyan

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    The text starts with "do not be deceived" -- whenever the bible does that -- it is wise to pay attention and avoid anything that would water-down or misdirect.

    Read all of chapter 6 notice that Paul is speaking to people in church that are doing wrong. He says "THEY" should not be deceived into thinking that wrong-doing is "still ok" as long as you are a Christian. Paul shows the extent to which that thinking is "dead wrong".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. J. Jump

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    xdisciplex this message has to do with the kingdom not eternal salvation. These are two different messages, and unfortunately the church for a great many years now has combined the two messages. Combining these two messages really clouds and blurs a lot of Scripture passages and has led to a great many false teachings.
     
  4. BobRyan

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    There is no text pointing to "Salvation outside of the kingdom of God". Rather the Kingdom of God (as we see in Daniel 7) is "comprised of the saints".
     
  5. genesis12

    genesis12
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    Only God does it right. He is our Source, our Strength, our Ability. As hard as we may try, we'll never get it right. Getting it right is up to Him. He took care of getting it right at the Cross. There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. When God looks at us He doesn't see what we once were, He sees the sacrifice that Jesus made at the Cross. If there is anything at all to "getting it right," it is our faith, and even the faith to believe comes from Him. He is our Sustainer. Jesus Christ is the Whole Armor of God.

    Check out the BUT program at
    http://www.feg-heidelberg.de/index.html

    :Fish:
     
  6. DHK

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    I guess that eliminates the need for being born again:

    John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    Context:
    1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
    10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
    11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

    Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

    Salvation is by faith and faith alone. It is faith in the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ, by which we are justified.
    DHK
     
  7. Brother Bob

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    JJ;
    What Scripture you use that separates the Kingdom from Salvation?
     
  8. J. Jump

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    How in the world would you get that from my post?

    The context of John 3 is not spiritual salvation. It can not be because it is written to a spiritually saved audience.

    The context of the I Corinthians passage is inheriting the kingdom. One can not be in a position to inherit anything unless they are part of the family. One must become part of the family first (salvation by grace through faith) before inheritance can even be in play. Inheritance and spiritual salvation are two different messages.

     
  9. BobRyan

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    Answer:There is not ONE!

    See Daniel 7 to see that it is the Saints and ONLY the saints that comprise Christ's kingdom and as Christ said "OUTSIDE" that kingdom are "the lost".

    The fact that the post above must deny that John 3 and the New Birth refer to salvation - speaks volumes to the error being suggested in that post.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. J. Jump

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    BobRyan can you provide a Scripture or Scriptures that says that everyone that has been saved by grace through faith is a saint?

    By the way I fully agree that only saints will rule and reign with Christ in the coming kingdom.

    It seems you are in the same camp as others that say the entire church makes up the bride and the church is only filled with saints, which totally contradicts a great amount of Scripture.

    Please show me where the Bible says that all Christians are saints and that all Christians are a part of the bride and that all Christians are faithful and that all Christians are overcomers and that all Christians finish the race of faith, etc, becuase those are all talking about the same thing.

    By the way contextually it is very easy to see that John 3 is not speaking of spiritual salvation. If you hold that John chapter 3 talks about spiritual salvation then you also have to believe that someone can lose their salvation. Do you believe someone can lose their salvation BobRyan?
     
  11. Hope of Glory

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    Being born from above is precisely spiritual salvation. But, this passage says nothing about how to be saved. It says how to live. Unless you're born from above, as is says in verse 3, you cannot see the Kingdom.

    But, if you look down in verse 5, it starts talking about an entrance into the Kingdom.

    Not everyone who is saved will have an entrance; only those who are obedient. You will serve now or you will serve then.

    Also, as JJump has pointed out, not all believers are referred to as "saints" in the Scriptures. Only men refer to them that way, and they are in error.
     
  12. BobRyan

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    The "church" and ONLY the Church is the "Body of Christ". In the literal churches there are only TWO kinds of people - the saved and the lost.

    In the Kingdom of heaven you have ONLY the SAVED and NONE of the SAVED are "OUTSIDE THE KINGDOM" weeping and wailing and gnashing teeth "but in a saved kind of way" as you seem to suppose. that is NOT the description of "salvation" though this seems to be at odds with your views.

    #1. IT IS speaking of salvation -- the ONLY way to inherit eternal life IS to be born again and John 3 points out that this is a PRE-CROSS fact! I believe it!

    #2. Matt 18 SHOWS "forgiveness revoked" and salvation lost JUST as does 2Tim 2 and I fully accept this Bible truth. Paul admits to it as well as Christ as well as Ezek 18 and many other places. I believe the Word of God!
     
  13. J. Jump

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    That is absolutely correct. The church is the body of Christ. That is totally different than the bride of Christ.

    That's not what the Bible says. Read the parable of the wedding feast. The was a guest that wasn't arrayed in the proper garments and was kicked out into the outer darkness where they was weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    Do you believe that God just let an unsaved person slip into heaven and then had to kick out the lost person?

    Of course not, so that means that your view is incorrect.

    You don't inherit salvation. Salvation is by grace through faith and has nothing to do with inheritance. We haven't even gotten very far in this conversation and you have already contradicted the Bible twice. Grace is through faith - it really is that plain and simple.

    If you believe that one can lose salvation then you believe in a works based salvation and that is contrary to what the Bible teaches. Eternal salvation is not dependant on the believer accept to have faith. That is a one-time event in the person's life. After it is received it is a done deal.

    So three strikes - BobRyan you are out :)
     
  14. BobRyan

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    Can you provide a text of scripture that says "saints are not saved by grace through faith"?

    Ephesians 1:1
    Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints of God who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus
     
  15. BobRyan

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    The Bride of Christ in James 4 is seen to be the church of Christ. Love of the World by the Church is thereby called "adultery" against God in James 4.
     
  16. BobRyan

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    Only "the saved" inherit eternal life!!

    you have to BE saved and choose to STAY saved to "inherit eternal life"!

    The SAINTs inherit eternal life this is what is "promised" to the saved.

    In Romans 4 we see that the saints are to "inherit the earth" --
     
  17. BobRyan

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    Quote:
    Matt 18 SHOWS "forgiveness revoked" and salvation lost JUST as does 2Tim 2 and I fully accept this Bible truth. Paul admits to it as well as Christ as well as Ezek 18 and many other places. I believe the Word of God!
    #1. Would you prefer that I deny the Word of God just shown to you?

    #2. Clearly works-based-salvation as you have defined it IS acceptance of scripture. I claim that your definition is totally wrong. The Bible turns out to be true - Matt 18 "forgiveness revoked" is a fact - as is the case of 2Tim 2 "IF WE deny Him HE WILL also deny us" and AS IN the case of Romans 11 about those who are REMOVED from the vine of Christ because they failed to continue in belief but selected unbelief.

    Your method of simply "dismissing scripture" by labeling it "salvation by works" is not "exegesis" it is not a Bible argument at all!
     
  18. DHK

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    No it wasn't. At this point and time Nicodemus was not saved. Do you automatically think that all Jews are saved? Were the Jews that put Christ on the cross saved--the ones yelling in the crowd: Crucify Him! Crucify Him! Remember that Nicodemus was a member of that same Sanhedrin that condemned Christ to death by crucifixion. He was not a saved man at this point in time. He came to Jesus by night for fear of the Jews.

    He wanted to know about salvation. Jesus said plainly to him.
    "Except a man be born again he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

    Put another way Jesus said if you are born once you will die twice;
    Born twice you will die once.

    You must be born again because at birth you are born into Satan's family (John 8:44). Jesus told the Pharisees, including Nicodemus, that his father was the devil. Thus the need of being born again--being born into God's family. Without that experience he could not gain entrance into Heaven, much less the kingdom.

    John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
    --Generally speaking, his own people, the Jews, rejected Christ, their own MEssiah.

    John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
    --Believing in Christ makes a person a "child of God," born of God. This is the new birth. This is salvation. It is given "to them that believe on his name."

    John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
    --The Bible is clear. Believing on Christ is to be born of God.
    This is what Nicodemus had not done. It is what he needed to do. He needed to be born again. Jesus tells him three times in John three that he needed to be born again. Without being born again there is no salvation.

    1 Peter 1:18-19 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
    1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
    DHK
     
  19. Hope of Glory

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    See, this is one of the things you fall into when we post Scripture: You say something that we never said.

    Show me where I ever said that the saints are not saved by grace through faith.

    I dare you to show it to me.

    You can't.

    What was said is that not everyone who is saved is a saint.

    You twist words that I have said, just as you twist Scripture to make it say what you want it to say.

    Those who the Scriptures refer to as saints are those who live their lives in such a way that it's vible to others that they are living a separated or holy life. Not that they are sinless, but they are separated unto purity.

    Mark 6:20 says, "For Herod feared John, knowing that he was a just man and HOLY MAN [hagios = a SAINT; John was not only a just man, but a saint], and observed him; and when he heard him, he did many things, and heard him gladly." Herod knew that John was a just man and a saint. Herod knew that he was a just man and a holy man by the way John conducted his life; by the way he lived. John was not given this title simply because he was a child of God.

    It was given because Herod observed him. Herod observed him and knew that he was living a different kind of life than the normal life of the normal person would live according to lust and the power of sin that dominates the life of a normal human being.

    John separated himself and was different and lived a lifestyle that was different. John had a holy lifestyle. A holy lifestyle means that I am separated unto purity. It does not mean that we live a lifestyle that is sinless. John was not deity; he was not God. He was a man, just like you and me. He was not practicing a lifestyle of lawlessness. He was very careful how he lived. He separated himself unto purity. He separated himself from that which was impure unto that which was clean.

    This has nothing to do with how to be spiritually saved.

    What must I do to be saved? Believe on the Lord Jeus (PLUS NOTHING!) and you will (NOT MAY) be saved! Isn't that a wonderful and simple message?

    Yet so many people twist Scripture around and add to that. They may say, "Well, you must do good works to prove you're saved or you're not saved."

    Works are works are works. It matters not whether you add them to become saved, to stay saved, or to prove that you're saved. Believe, plus NOTHING!

    For some studies we did on John 3:3 and John 3:5, as well as the Saints, you can click these links and open a new window. From there, you can read it online or download the pdf and/or the mp3:

    The Saints part 1


    The Saints part 2


    See the Kingdom


    Enter the Kingdom
     
  20. BobRyan

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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BobRyan
    Can you provide a text of scripture that says "saints are not saved by grace through faith"?

    Ephesians 1:1
    Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints of God who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus


    That is "my question to you" as well as my text to you.
     

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