No universal church?

So that the body of Christ can draw people to Himself, anywhere in this world. Every country. Every continent. Every town. Christ needs people who are indwelt by Him, and empowered by Him, who can sing the praises of Him who called them out of darkness, and into His marvelous light.

Lost people can encounter these "Jesus" people in the market, in a library, at a grade school picking up their kids, at a gym, at work, visiting in a hospital or nursing home, etc etc etc.

To ask "Whats the reason for the existance of the Universal Church" is like saying "Whats the pupose of having born again christians all over the world?"

The "universal church" is simply every christian alive on earth during the 95% of their time when they are not meeting at their local meeting place (church building)

The time for 99% of christian ministry is NOT during meetings on the week end...but rather all during the other 6 days of the week while experiencing everyday life.

I recieve great blessing every week end during our meetings, when I am with my brothers and sisters. But its the rest of the week when I am rubbing elbows with lost people regularly, planting seeds and sharing truth.

Thats why! :thumbs:

Mike

 

But Mike, Scripture plainly teaches that it is the Christ himself who does the drawing of people to himself.

If you had simply substituted "kingdom" for "universal church," then I'd agree with most of what you said. All believers are subjects of the King.

 

Do a search online of the word ekklesia. Any Greek lectionary that you find will tell you that the word means "assembly." Universal church is a leftover catholic doctrine kept by the Reformers. Certainly all believers are God's children, but to say they constitute "The Church" is to de-emphasize the local church, which everyone readily admits is the usage of the word in the overwhelming majority of cases. Jesus also used the word "ekklesia" in Mt. 18, and several times in Rev. 2,3 - all referring obviously to local church.
The old question, "How would the hearers have understood the word?" THey would no mroe have thought of it as universal than if He had said, "I will build my factory, or restaurant..."

 

What local church was Jesus referring to in Matthew 18????

 

Quite the contrary, the Universal Church -- the Body of Christ -- removes the overarching and often corrupting elements created by the visible, institutional, "made with hands" churches, whether local and "autonomous," or denominational and heirarchical.

A local Pastor can as easily abuse his position as can a Catholic Bishop or any other figure in church leadership. This may harm the "visible church," but it cannot harm the "Body of Christ," at least in the spiritual sense.

JDale

 

Tom.

Of course. But whats the point? Nothing in my post contradicts that in the least.

Mike

 

Greg,

No its not. It doesnt de-emphasise it in the least. It expands on it.

Mike

 

For those of you who deny any form of "Universal Church," I'd like to hear your explanation of Matthew 13:24-30; 37-43. It poses some great difficulties for a denial of a universal Body of Christ, and for those who believe the Church and the Kingdom of God are "two entirely different things."

JDale

 

Just some thoughts for those who do not agree with the aspect of the 'Universal' Church.

Specifically with regard to Christ's coming for His Church.

1. Will Christ take unto Himself only certain congregations (certain local churches) or is He coming back for all believers, (ie, The Church)?

2. If He is taking only certain congregations (churches) will He take them all, both the saved and the unsaved?

3. If not, then you would agree that only believers will be taken?

4. If so, what about those in other congregations who are saved (even if it be but one person), will they not be received unto Christ?

5. And if they be received unto Christ, are they not the by definition the church who Christ came for and thus His bride?

 

bumpity, bumity, bump! :laugh:

 

Christ is coming for his bride. All believers make up his bride, whether they are disobedient in not being members of a local church or not.

He is coming for His bride--all born again believers (of course there is no other kind).

Only believers make up the bride.

A saved person belongs to the bride of Christ, whether they be disobedient or not.

If you are equating church with bride; church is used in the generic sense, as one church representing all Bible-believing churches. If a person is not a member of a Bible believing church they are a disobedient Christian. Did the thief on the cross go to heaven even though he was not baptized? Will Christians go to heaven if they are not baptized, though that is also a command of Christ?

For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast.
We are not saved by works, whether it be the work of baptism or of joining a local church. Yet both are commands of the Lord. The Lord still takes those that are his (the bride) to heaven.

 

The idea of no universal church does not deny the eternal salvation of members in non-scriptural organizations.

The 'non' universal church belief is that Christ established and authorized one church, this church has never had need to be 'reformed' or to have the 'full' gospel to be re-taught to her. She has always observed proper NT organization, faith, practice and discipline.

This body has not always been historically identified with the baptist discriptor, but has historically been baptistic in nature.

Now, in order to have a universal church to be valid, we must forsake scriptural discipline. This alone destroys the church and goes against scripture.

How can a universal church meet?, observe the ordinances, perpetuate the gospel? serve its membership? To believe in a spiritual baptism into a universal body denies the 'empowerment' of Acts 1 upon the body Christ called out, assembled with, commanded, and taught. Who is my head, were I to be a mystic member of such a universal body?

No, there is no universal church. There is a family of God, but the church is a distinct divinely orginated body of believers. If we are a universal invisible body, then we are no different than the RCC or any 'national' church and the first thing we will lose in real time is a separation of church and state. It is in the universal body the state finds its authority, otherwise, the only valid ruler of the church is Christ, all that is needful for the gathering of His sheep, the spiritual feeding, the teaching of their denying ungodliness, can be scripturally found to have been set in the church by His authority alone.

bro. Dallas:wavey:

 

That should be Matthew 16...what local church was Jesus referring to here???

I would still like an answer to this question for those of you who deny a universal church...

 

Dear Brother,
I have already answered it in my previous post. There was and is only one church that Christ called out, organized and established. This body alone has NT authority which is the authority of Christ to perpetuate the faith, practice, order, and discipline of the church.


This church Christ spoke of in Matt. 16 is that one church.

Acts 1 tells us Luke wrote the former treatise (the gospel of Luke) to record all that Jesus began to both do and teach, that is during his ministry; he further tells us that he assembled with them for forty days and commaded them and taught them.

This is that church which received the only Holy Spirit baptism found in both NT and history.

bro. Dallas:wavey:

 

You apparently missed the whole intent of what I wrote DHK.

I was asking the questions for those who DO NOT believe the biblical aspect of the Universal Church. They hold it to be a LOCAL Church and thus my questions were geared for those who hold such a position, at least in relation for Christ coming back for His Church\Bride.

 

Apparently I do that a lot. What can I say? :BangHead:
I am getting old maybe??

 

Frogman,

Agreed

Agreed.

Not true.

No it doesnt.

Wherever the meeting place is. Usually on the weekend, but also during the week.

They practice the Lords supper and water baptism.

By sharing it with the lost.

When they gather.

We are Spiritually baptised into the body of Christ at the moment of saving faith in Christ. Water baptism is a "picture" of the baptism that has already occured.

John said "I baptize with water. One is coming who will baptize with the Holy Spirit and fire"

I dont recall anyone on this thread speaking against any of that.

Jesus Christ, just like He is your "head" sitting in your fellowship meeting place.

Yes, there is. Its all the christians scattered all across this earth.

True. That includes the place where you regularly gather, and the place where I regularly gather. But we are both members of the universal church as well as members of those smaller gatherings.

We are very different. We have no unscriptural Hierarchy who commands us what we must believe and disbelieve. Our only head is Christ and our authority is the scriptures. VERY different than the false RCC.

Where in the world did that come from? You lost me there. We are on a completly different realm than politics, and what we are speaking of has nothing to do with politics.

Agreed. Nothing about the Universal Church is in conflict with any of that.

Grace and peace,

Mike

 

DHK,

Nooooo, your not getting older, your getting better!

I keep telling myself that, as I get older ...I mean BETTER!

Mike

 

Dear Brother Mike,
Thanks for your reply. But tell me, how can the so called universal church discipline an unruly and sinful member?

How can that discipline be enforced?

If I am a member of an universal invisible body, how can my local body make any effort to bring me back to repentance if I fall into either a private or open sin? They cannot, I am not subject to this local body of believers, but subject to a universal, invisible body, which mysteriously meets where? There is no way a universal body can meet, can observe the ordinances, can proclaim the gospel, can perform discipline as needed etc.

This idea of a universal invisible body is a RCC idea and is not found in scripture.

bro. Dallas:wavey:

 

BroDallas,

Somehow you, and some others as well, are missing it, even though its been posted many times.

You seem to have the idea that what we are saying is that everyone needs to FLEE their local assemblies, and new believers are to NEVER join up with local assemblies, and just be Lone Ranger christians, since they are members of the universal church.

I have never said any of that, and I havent seen anyone else say anything like that.

I'll try this again...

The vast majority of believers are plugged into local fellowships. Its always been that way, its that way now, and it will continue to always be that way.

All we are saying is that God is not near sighted. He doesnt just see your local assembly, or mine.

God sees and works mostly through BELIEVERS. Some of those believers gather sometimes in my building, some gather in your building, some gather in other buildings.

But 90% of the time we are all NOT gathered. God does not shut down during those times. He continues to work through His people during the 90% of the time when when are the scattered church, just like during the 10% of the time that we are the gathered church.

God sees His entire body of believers on earth as one giant "universal" church, and He works through them abundantly. During a small part of the time we are the gathered church and He blesses and works through His people during that time as well.

NOW do you see what we are saying?

Mike