Non-cal view

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by agedman, Dec 31, 2013.

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  1. agedman

    agedman
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    In another thread, I posted the following.

    Perhaps the Non-cal folks would like to "pick it apart" and show what they would agree and disagree.

    I do not expect this thread to endorse a difference from the Calvinistic as OPPOSED to the Non-cal.

    Rather, I expect this thread to explore the Non-cal thinking and differentiating between various opinions as to the non-cal view.

    Here is what I posted as it relates to THIS thread:

    Non-Cal views go along these lines:

    Non-cals, do not generally consider the will as constricted and obligatory to the forces of nature (desire, motives, impulses, needs (both physical and psychological, ...) and can make some kind of decision in which the forces of nature do not oblige.

    To use an illustration: The non-cal view would consider that one can hold their breath for they have that free will. Yet, anyone knows that if you hold your breath long enough you will pass out and start to breath normally - the nature of the body conforms the decision to hold the breath to the needs of the body. The non-cal points to the decision as "free will" yet seems to discard that all such decisions will in fact conform to the nature. That no decisions of consequence can be made that do not conform to the demands of the nature.

    Therefore, the non-cals must make some human constructs such as "prevenient grace" and "progressive sanctification" in order for some scheme of salvation to be developed.

    However, even in such schemes, the emphasis always returns to God being the initiator, and that the will of humankind must by some miraculous work of God be "awakened" to the need of Christ; and during that ethereal suspended state between earthly and heavenly, the person has some "freedom of the will" to make a decision for or against salvation.
     
  2. Winman

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    I do not usually involve myself in these kinds of discussions, but isn't breathing called an involuntary action like our heartbeat?

    I do not will myself to breathe, my body does that automatically.
     
    #2 Winman, Dec 31, 2013
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  3. Pastor_Bob

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    Can you give an actual example? There are gaping holes in the one you posted.
     
  4. Revmitchell

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    Who are these so called non cals that hold this position?
     
  5. agedman

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    I would suggest that some of the posts on the recent thread dealing with the cause or contra causal free will would be an example.

    It is the "gaping holes" that this thread seeks to pertain.
     
  6. agedman

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    How about you?

    This thread is to show specific areas of disagreement view might be of that non-cal as presented. It is not a report card on who holds the view.

    If you disagree with what is presented in the OP, then state exactly your view, and what specifically you disagree in the OP, and why your view is what is Biblical.
     
  7. Revmitchell

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    I know of no non cal that hols to such a silly view.
     
  8. Pastor_Bob

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    Neither do I.
     
  9. agedman

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    Incredible!

    He who at any thread dealing with the cal-arm controversy is piping in with all manner of posts.

    I suggest that as a Non-cal you have opportunity to present your view in contrast to other non-cal views.

    What makes your view unique to you in contrast to all other non-cals.
     
  10. agedman

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    Really?

    I suppose you did not read the posts on the contra-causal-freewill threads?

    The thinking followed the view(s) that a person can make a decision without and outside of the influences and in direct opposition to any impulses obliged by basic nature, basic desires, and basic motives.
     
  11. Winman

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    I do not usually participate in threads about the will because I do not understand all the terms. Skandelon is the one who loves to debate about the will.

    I will say this though, a person doesn 't always perform their greatest desire. If someone pulled a gun on me and asked me for my wallet, I would give it to him to preserve my life, but that is not my greatest desire. My greatest desire at that moment would be for a cop to happen by and arrest the thief, and that I could keep my wallet.
     
  12. agedman

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    Then present what you do hold and show how it agrees or disagrees with the non-cal.

    Perhaps it should asked, do you hold to "freedom of the will?"

    If you do, to what extent is that freedom expressed in salvation in comparison to other non-cal views?
     
  13. Revmitchell

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    I doubt there is anyone who hols such a view. It is more likely that they are being misrepresented whoever they are.
     
  14. Pastor_Bob

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    I have not. Can you post a link?
     
  15. agedman

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    Then you would agree with the statement of the op:


    Non-cals, do not generally consider the will as constricted and obligatory to the forces of nature (desire, motives, impulses, needs (both physical and psychological, ...) and can make some kind of decision in which the forces of nature do not oblige.

    ... The non-cal points to the decision as "free will" yet seems to discard that all such decisions will in fact conform to the nature. That no decisions of consequence can be made that do not conform to the demands of the nature.

    Therefore, the non-cals must make some human constructs such as "prevenient grace" and "progressive sanctification" in order for some scheme of salvation to be developed.
     
  16. Winman

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    I am not sure what contra-causal-freewill means. That is why I usually do not participate in these types of threads.
     
  17. Winman

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    Can't you put it in simpler terms that I can understand? Give a real life example of what you are saying.
     
  18. Pastor_Bob

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    I believe I have the free will to make any decision, but once the decision is made, I have no power over the consequences. That is the whole point of God's conditional covenants. God gives us two scenarios - we choose which path to take. Once the path is taken, the consequences are pre-determined. The choice is still mine.
     
  19. agedman

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    I am not good at posting links to a thread - I think this will work:

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=90572&highlight=contra+causal+free


    Perhaps here is another in which the topic expressed variant opinions on the 'free will' issue:

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=77659&highlight=contra+causal+free


    If you both go through the posts on the threads, you will see some posts that may be indicative of the OP statements.
     
    #19 agedman, Dec 31, 2013
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  20. Winman

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    The robbery analogy came up, and Luke said his greatest desire was to live, and so he gave his wallet to the robber.

    Webdog countered that his greatest desire would be that the robber be arrested and that he keep his wallet. I agree.

    It is my will that I never sin again as long as I live, but I doubt that will happen.
     
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