None can come but those "given" - Jn. 6:36-40

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by The Biblicist, Jan 19, 2014.

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  1. The Biblicist

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    37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
    38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

    1. Who "shall come" to Christ? ANSWER: all who are given.
    2. Who shall not be lost? ANSWER: "of all" given
    3. Who shall be raised up to life? ANSWER: "of all" given
    4. Who is the one believing in verse 40? ANSWER: of those raised up and who are those raised up? "of all" given and "of all" that "shall come."

    Therefore, it is impossible to come to Christ if you are not "of all" those first given by the Father as only those first given by the Father "SHALL" come and shall "be raised up" and shall not be lost.

    Therefore, "ALL" given are equal to "OF ALL" who "shall come"! Therefore those who do not come in verse 36 and verse 65 were not "of all" given.

    Therefore, since those in verse 36 and 64 did not come they were not only not "of all" given but they were not of those drawn as verse 65 explicitly states they had not been draw by the Father.

    Therefore, "of all" given equals "all" drawn as only those not given and not drawn DO NOT COME TO CHRIST and "all" others do.
     
  2. Winman

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    37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
    38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

    1. Who "shall come" to Christ? ANSWER: all who are given. True
    2. Who shall not be lost? ANSWER: "of all" given True
    3. Who shall be raised up to life? ANSWER: "of all" given True
    4. Who is the one believing in verse 40? ANSWER: of those raised up and who are those raised up? "of all" given and "of all" that "shall come." True

    Therefore, it is impossible to come to Christ if you are not "of all" those first given by the Father as only those first given by the Father "SHALL" come and shall "be raised up" and shall not be lost. True

    Therefore, "ALL" given are equal to "OF ALL" who "shall come"! Therefore those who do not come in verse 36 and verse 65 were not "of all" given. True

    Therefore, since those in verse 36 and 64 did not come they were not only not "of all" given but they were not of those drawn as verse 65 explicitly states they had not been draw by the Father. FALSE!!!

    Therefore, "of all" given equals "all" drawn as only those not given and not drawn DO NOT COME TO CHRIST and "all" others do. FALSE!!!
     
  3. The Biblicist

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    Look at the inconsistency of Winman's last two responses in connection with the previous responses above.

    1. The future tense "SHALL come" demands grammatically that coming is the CONSEQUENCE not the cause of being given by the Father. This act of giving occurred prior to Christ coming into the world (v. 37-38). This destroys his interpretation that STATED CAUSE being given is coming in verse 40.

    2. NONE are raised up but those given and drawn and those in verses 36 and 64 neither are "of all" those given or drawn because they do not come. Hence, failure to come is stated as the proof they were never drawn - v. 65. Hence, not all are drawn which destroys his interpetation of John 12:32 which also repudiates that "of all" given does not equal all who are drawn as the evidence for both is THEY COME or else they were not drawn or given.

    3. There are "some" who are not drawn (v. 64) hence they cannot come (vv. 44,65) and hence they are not "of all" given as ALL given do come, and none are lost and all are raised up and thus they cannot be part "of all given."

    Conclusion: All given = all drawn as it requires both given and drawn to come and "of all" those that come NONE are lost but ALL are raised up. Only unbelievers are not drawn (vv. 64=65) as ALL believers are "of all" those that come and NONE ARE LOST and NONE failed to be raised. There are no other classes but those who come and those who do not.
     
    #3 The Biblicist, Jan 19, 2014
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  4. The Biblicist

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    Let me state my argument simply and clearly:

    Failure to come to Christ is given as proof that such were neither given (v. 36 is explained by verses 37-40) or drawn (v. 65 explains verse 64). Hence, the only evidence one is given and drawn is that they do come to Christ. Since there are only two possible classes of people (1) those who do not come and (2) those who do come and being "given" and since being "drawn" and being "given" are the STATED cause for coming then "of all" given must equal all who are drawn as failure to come is the proof they were neither given or drawn.
     
  5. Skandelon

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    1. No one can believe unless they hear. (Rm 10:14, 17)

    2. Israel can't hear because they are being hardened by God (Mk 4, Jn 12:39, Acts 28:21-28, Rm 11, etc)

    3. God selected a few from Israel and reserved them from the hardening so as to ensure His purposes in electing Israel would stand. (Rm 9-11) That is to ensure they would bring us the messiah and his redemptive message of hope for all nations. These apostles from Israel were chosen for the noble purpose of bringing the gospel to the world, they were given to Christ by the father for this noble cause.
     
    #5 Skandelon, Jan 19, 2014
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  6. Winman

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    It doesn't say whether being given causes them to come or not, but simply that all that are given shall come. You read your presupposition into the text when it is not there.

    In my view, those given are those God in his foreknowledge knows will believe.

    There you go again, misapplying the word "drawn". Nowhere in John 6 does it say all that are drawn will be raised up. You cannot show it.

    Their failure to come is because they do not believe. They have not received "it", that is, the word of God. Jesus clearly shows this in chapter 17;

    Jhn 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
    7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
    8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

    God gave his words to men, but only those who "received them" (vs. 8) have come to Jesus. Therefore, no man can come unless "it" (the word of God) were given them. Plain as day.

    Pure baloney, verse 64 does not mention being drawn. You seem to believe you can insert words into scripture at your whim.

    Not even your Calvinist cronies will support you here, they know you are inserting the word "draw" and "drawn" where it is not shown.

    Absolutely false, AGAIN.
     
  7. agedman

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    65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.

    I just do not understand why some contend for some other way than what is clearly taught by Christ.

    Unless the Father grants, the unbeliever remains in unbelief.

    There is just no other way to interpret this passage and the Context of all John 6.

    Those not given are not going to come to Christ.

    Even Skan. points to the estate of the current Israel who are under temporary blindness and therefore not "given" to Christ (but will be). They do not come because they cannot come.

    It is clear that those given are drawn and do come (the OP verses).
    37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
    There are TWO wills being shown in this John 6 passage pertaining to the work of the Father.

    The first is the will of the Father toward the Son:
    39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
    The second is the will of the Father toward humankind:
    40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

    John 6 shows the lie of all human ability schemes.
     
  8. Winman

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    Because that is NOT what the scripture says;

    Jhn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

    There is not one word about granting faith in this verse. And if you go to chapter 17, Jesus makes it absolutely clear what was given, "the words which thou gavest me".

    Jhn 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

    Here we see what was given those that believe, the word of God. It does not say Jesus granted them faith. In fact, it shows his disciples "received them" and "believed", crediting them with the act of receiving and believing.

    Baloney, I just showed you that Jhn 17:8 tells us exactly what was "given" in Jhn 6:65.

    Those that believe not will not come (Jhn 6:64-65)

    No man can believe on Jesus and come to him unless he has heard of Christ.

    Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

    And once again, consistent with all other scripture, what is necessary to believe and therefore come? The word of God, faith comes by hearing the word of God (Rom 10:17)

    Those given are drawn and do come. But nowhere do the scriptures ever say every person drawn comes, you cannot show it.

    The will of the Father is that everyone who sees Jesus and believes on him shall have eternal life and be raised up the last day.
     
    #8 Winman, Jan 19, 2014
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  9. Iconoclast

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    Winman,

    This is why you do not understand the excellent teaching of Biblicist.Re-read what you resist at all costs....

    He just did...you CANNOT see it.
     
  10. agedman

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    Winman, You are using a different version - I used the NASB translation.

    Do you have reason to discredit this translation work?

    Personally, I think it a close rendering to the original.

    Therefore, your argument is unfounded.

    The Scriptures do state "...no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

    The rest of your post is based off this misrepresentation of the Scriptures, so I don't need to respond.
     
  11. Winman

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    I do not consider teaching pure falsehood "excellent" but you probably do not know the difference.

    On the contrary, I can see his (and your) error quite clearly.

    Show me where the scriptures say every person drawn comes. I challenge you to put your money where your mouth is.
     
  12. Winman

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    Do tell? I would have never guessed. So much for Modern Versions saying the same thing as the King James. :laugh:

    Yes, John 17:8 tells us precisely what was given to the disciples, the words God the Father gave to Jesus. Plain as day.

    Jesus does not say he gave or granted faith to the disciples.

    What a surprise! Who would think you would support the version that supports Calvinism?? :laugh:

    No, my argument is from the "whole" of scripture. John 17 is also speaking of those "given" to Jesus and what was "given" to the disciples. It was not faith, but the words God the Father gave to Jesus.

    No, the scriptures says no man can come unless "it" were given him of my Father;

    Jhn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

    Jhn 17:8 explains that the "it" Jesus spoke of are the words his Father gave to him.

    I don't care if you respond or not, your view is error either way.
     
  13. BobRyan

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    The title of the thread reveals the error in Calvinism because John 6 never says "no one CAN come to Me but those GIVEN".

    The statements that are "supposed to be in the Bible" in favor of Calvinism are as in the case of the title of this thread - only in the inferences and liberties taken with the text -- they are not actually in the text.

    Instead of saying "no one CAN come to me unless they are GIVEN" - the text actually says -

    [FONT=&quot]44 ""[/FONT][FONT=&quot]No one can come[/FONT][FONT=&quot] to Me unless the Father who sent [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Me draws[/FONT][FONT=&quot] him[/FONT][FONT=&quot];[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and I will raise him up on the last day.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]


    And of course God "Draws ALL MANKIND to Him" John 12:32

    ===========================================


    • [FONT=&quot]The chapter starts off with that special qualified list of those who see and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]come to Christ[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and Believe – and does not blame the difference on God.[/FONT]


    [FONT=&quot]John 6[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]35 Jesus said to them, "" I am the bread of life; [/FONT][FONT=&quot]he who comes to Me[/FONT][FONT=&quot] will not hunger[/FONT][FONT=&quot], and he [/FONT][FONT=&quot]who believes[/FONT][FONT=&quot] in Me will never thirst.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]36 ""But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe[/FONT]


    • [FONT=&quot]So that when we get to “All that the Father GIVES” it is already in context of that list of qualifiers and even repeats them.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
      [/FONT]
      [FONT=&quot]
      [/FONT]
      [FONT=&quot]37 "" All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the one who comes to Me[/FONT][FONT=&quot] I will certainly not cast out.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
      38 ""For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
      39 ""This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
      40 ""For this is the will of My Father, that [/FONT][FONT=&quot]everyone who beholds[/FONT][FONT=&quot]the Son and believes[/FONT][FONT=&quot]in Him[/FONT][FONT=&quot] will have eternal life, and I Myself [/FONT][FONT=&quot]will raise him up on the last day[/FONT][FONT=&quot].''

      [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]No Arminian agues “God has GIVEN all mankind to Christ as saints” or any such thing. The Arminian claim is that God “DRAWS ALL mankind to Him” John 12:32 and that not all DRAWN will choose to see, and come to Christ and believe. Not all are “Given by the Father” because “Given by the Father” is previously defined by that qualified list of choices on the part of the lost.[/FONT]


    [FONT=&quot]The DRAWING of ALL mankind to God – is supernatural and no man can come to Christ without that supernatural work of God that is done for “ALL mankind” John 12:32. All that the Father gives are the same all that are “Taught of God” – they are that qualified list of those who “heard” and “learned” and “Came to Christ” and are faithful to the end who receive eternal life.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]44 ""[/FONT][FONT=&quot]No one can come[/FONT][FONT=&quot] to Me unless the Father who sent [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Me draws[/FONT][FONT=&quot] him[/FONT][FONT=&quot];[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and I will raise him up on the last day.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]45 ""It is written in the prophets, " AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard [/FONT][FONT=&quot]and learned[/FONT][FONT=&quot] from the Father, comes to Me.

    ===============================

    Those "Given" are a special qualified set within the larger group "ALL" - that are drawn.

    [/FONT]


    1. [FONT=&quot]There is not ONE text in all of scripture in which the drawing of God necessitates coming to Christ - it merely allows for it.[/FONT]
    2. [FONT=&quot]There is not ONE text that says that "Drawing of God" cannot happen until you are born again or that it is the act of causing you to be born again[/FONT]
    3. [FONT=&quot]There is not ONE text in all of scripture that says that if the person who is drawn - does not come to Christ - then it is a sign of God's failure.[/FONT]
    4. [FONT=&quot]There is not ONE text in all of scripture that says "all whom God draws Will COME to Christ".[/FONT]
    5. [FONT=&quot]There is not ONE text that says “[FONT=&quot]None can come but those "given"[/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]

    [/FONT]
     
    #13 BobRyan, Jan 20, 2014
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  14. Inspector Javert

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    That is a lie..

    Here's the verse:

    Jhn 6:65
    And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.


    You said:
    1.) "drawing" is EXPLICITLY stated in that passage....

    The very word isn't even used in that verse...
    You are lying.
    If anything it is IMPLICIT.......not EXPLICIT.

    What IS "EXPLICIT" is the "GIVING" not "DRAWING".....


    And that is why you must spend 88 paragraphs confusing people and spinning their brains into veritable whirligigs before you ever make your point.......

    It's because you have to exchange the word "draw" for "give" in vs. 65 because you are lying to them.

    There are some simple-minded folks on B.B. who confuse your extreme verbosity for intelligent argument...but it isn't and never was...it's simple vain blathering. The entire point of your post was to substitute the word "draw" for "give" in vs. 65.........

    That's a lie. Verse 65 still DOESN'T SAY THAT!!! No matter how many hours you obfuscate pretending it does.



    Your elongated posts aren't long-thought-out in-depth ingenious syllogisms of deep truths...they are hot air. And noxiously presented.

    If the Bible said what you WANTED IT TO SAY....you could simply quote it instead of lie about what it says.
     
    #14 Inspector Javert, Jan 20, 2014
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  15. Inspector Javert

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    Biblicist's arguments aren't long-thought-out or inventive, or "in-depth"........they're just verbose and overly-wordy........

    It sounds really smart to some people....
    I can't guess the who that type of person is who'd find them illuminating... :rolleyes:
    But others recognize it for what it is.....
    Just gaseous.

    B.T.W:
    I have some pristine ocean-front property in Arizona to sell to you for pennies on the dollar.
     
    #15 Inspector Javert, Jan 20, 2014
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  16. Skandelon

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    Gentlemen...gentlemen...please. Let's remember who we represent here.

    Biblicist is clearly mistaken, as you know I believe, but he is also clearly intelligent and well educated. There is no reason to be personally demeaning toward another poster. We all have the tendency to go that route, but I think we can do better...
     
  17. pinoybaptist

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    you might as well say Jesus Christ is a liar.
    because verse 65 where he says "Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father" is in agreement with what Jesus Himself said in verse 44 of the same chapter: No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    Now, why no one will come to Him EXCEPT the Father draw Him He explained between verses 44 to 65 beginning in verse 45: It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard , and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
     
  18. Inspector Javert

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  19. pinoybaptist

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  20. Winman

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    Exactly, that's why I show cartoons that say blah, blah, blah, blah. Biblicist thinks ten thousand words makes him correct.

    Yeah, to other brain-washed Calvinists it sounds brilliant, because he parrots what other brain-washed Calvinists say, he just uses a lot more words to do so.

    Don't take a check from these guys, cash only.
     
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