Not attending all services

I am still not talking about a "hard standard." I am talking about how do we come up with any kind of standard. Why isn't 15 minutes a week, or Christmas and Easter, sufficient? </font>[/QUOTE]Because I said so? Who really cares. Nobody is advocating for less time at church. Just that making folks feel obligated to go to every church service your church offers is not the right thing to do.

So either you must support obligating people to go to every single service offered by your church or you else you support going two times a year and church has no value? That is what we call a false dichotomy.

 

I am still not talking about a "hard standard." I am talking about how do we come up with any kind of standard. Why isn't 15 minutes a week, or Christmas and Easter, sufficient? </font>[/QUOTE]My question would be, what do you want this standard for? Why is this standard so important to you? So that you can judge one person as meeting your arbitrary standard and another as not meeting it?

I've already said that we should always encourage folks to spend more time in fellowship with the body and worship of God Almighty. Setting an arbitrary standard does nothing to facilitate this.

 

** double post **

 

How can you do one without the other? If your focus is on Christ, will not it also be on his body? </font>[/QUOTE]Absolutely. But that is not always by being at church every minute. It is more often a balance between encouragement of the saints and evangelism. Too often the people in the church have so many problems because of their neglect of the needs of the world and what they can do. I find myself praying more and reading God's word more when I am discipling and sharing my faith with others.

Reminds me of the lyrics in a song Keith Green sang that says, "It's so hard to see when my eyes are on me."

Seems to me what Christianity is all about is freeing ourselves of ourselves. We are too often too selfish and thinking about our pains and our needs when a world is dying and going into a Christless eternity.

Reminds me of the time a man who was in a Bible study I led. He told me that he once worked as a diver for a company and might spend about two weeks at a time out on a derrick in the ocean. He started complaining to God about he didn't have any fellowship. God revealed to him that there was a whole group of me who didn't know Him. Within a short amount of time he led many of them to Christ as was busy leading them in Bible study and discipling them. He had loads of fellowship then.

I think all of us can say that when we are earnestly living for Christ and the people in the church are, it is like a big celebration. But when people come to do their duty something is lacking.

 

Our walk with God cannot be mearured by a legalistic standard of dos and donts but by relationship. We know whether or not we have a relationship with God. We cannot boast about a relationship except to say wee have one. But it is easy to boast about a measureable achievement based on a fixed standard.

There are many many children who have grown up in legalistsic rigid homes and went to church all their lives as children who do not attend now as adults.

 

I'm not sure that John, the beloved disciple would agree with you here.
John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. (KJV)

It seems that John is saying that our obedience to God is an indicator of our love for Him. Therefore, keeping these "legalistic standards of do's and dont's" can very well measure our walk with God.

BTW, I don't think you understnd what legalism really is. If you did, you would understand that no one is making such claims.

 

I agree with James_Newman who says that attending every church service your church offers is not one of God's commands.

 

You are right. I grew up on a dairy farm and when we went to church I often did not like going because I had already been up since 3:30 AM. We had to be done by 8:00 AM when the milk truck would come. In the evening, often we would not be done unitl 8:00 PM. So if a pastor would have tried to heap on the guilt we would have probably stopped then. I was not a Christian at the time.

In the first church I pastored the people were tired of trying to make the church grow through programs. Thye were so busy they didn't even know much about their neighbors. In the beginning I shut down the evening service and the midweek service/prayer meeting. What I did was to have a Bible study in my home. We spent two hours each week discussing the study and praying. Then on Sunday we had a short to the point 30 minute prayer meeting folowed by Sunday School and the worship service. What happened was amazing. As we prayed God gave us some tremendous help from those who showed up and ministry opportunities in the community. We saw people come to Christ and God gave us increasingly more opportunities. By the end of one year everyone of those people in that original study were leading studies they started on their own or were doing some kind of outreach. In the beginning I regularly took some of the men with me knocking on doors. The fact was that they were busier at the end of one year than when they first came. But their was a passion they had not had before.

At the end of two years I told the Bible study I was leading that I was finished with what I wanted to teach them. They looked at me and one of the men said, "We need this study." For each study those people would have to study about 3 to 7 hours each week in preparation before coming.

I think when we have something to give, those people who can come will come. But if they can't come we must be willing to accomodate them. I always told the congregation I pastored that if they wanted to get into a Bible study and the only time they could meet was midnight I would be there. We must meet people where they are, if we expect to reach them.

Look at what Christ has done for us!!

 

I agree with James_Newman who says that attending every church service your church offers is not one of God's commands.

</font>[/QUOTE]Thats very gracious of you. However I would admonish anyone to eximine the why and wherefor of their decision not to attend church services. I don't know where the line is on forsaking.

 

Guilt isn't the only motivator.

 

Who said anything about guilt?

Hebrews 13:17
17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

If you give your pastor grief over admonishing you to go to church, you should feel guilty. But the reason they tell you to go to church *should be* because they are looking out for their sheep, not because they want you to feel guilty. I understand that we all have our own idea about what we need spiritually. That's why God gave us a bible and pastors to preach from it.

When your right with the Lord, you want to fellowship with His body. If you don't want to go to church, you should figure out why. There may be a problem.

 

Pastor_Bob,

Again, you use John 14:21 to argue your point about Sunday AM;PM and Wednesday night. But that is only a proof text for what you want it to say.

Let me see if I can explain.

At my church we don't meet Sunday AM;PM;Wednesday Night as you do. So John 14:21 wouldn't apply to Sunday AM;PM;Wednesday Night. Because, I am not asking them to do that and I don't preach that the Bible tells them to do that because it doesn't tell us how and when to meet. It just says do it alot.

The point that I have tried to make is not that you can't do church as "we have always done it" or as "you have always done it", you certainly can. The point is you don't have too and there are churches that are out there that are reaching their communities in amazing way who seem to have found a better way. I agree with them and am using their methods. You don't have to change if you think you are doing it the best way but what you can't say is that you are doing it the way the "Bible" says to do it.

It doesn't give us an administrative list of how to "do" church. And you can't twist Scripture to defend an indefensable position. And what is indefensable is not that you can do it your way. You can and should if you think it is the best way. What is indefensable is that the Bible tells us to do it your way.

 

Pastor Larry,

You seem so defensive.

Read my post, I said "don't get hung up on the hours." You seem still hung up. They were simply an illustration that you can't be "at church" all the time. But that doesn't mean you aren't being a "church" all the time.

I am in now way attacking your ministry or your way of doing things. The great thing is that wherever and however God's word goes forth, people's lives change. But there are ministries that do things differently than you are describing who are having amazing impacts. I am only saying, I think they are on to something. But you can do what you want to do.

Again, my statement about "real jobs" is simply as an illustration of how people think. I'm glad you are teaching on the topic there is a great book out there entitled "Your Work Matters to God" written by two Dallas grads which greatly helped me in my understanding. And as a pastor who has two "real jobs", I see a great need to encourage people that their work matters.

So don't be so defensive...noone is attacking you. Just a battle of "ideas" at times but nothing personal. I'm sure you are impacting many people. That is great.

 

I am not defensive in teh least. I was just curious as to how you came up with all those hours as a "requirement" (to use your words, I believe) but somehow don't fit church in there with a requisite number of hours. Why not? What standard did you use to come with those "requirements" and "hours" and why not use that standard to apply to church as well?

I am not greatly concerned with how others do it. There are a lot of things I would like to do differently, but am not able to at present. There are certainly many ways to do what the church is supposed to be doing. My point is that church is a much higher priority than most people give it.

 

Happy,

I don't think the issue is now or ever was on whether a church should or should not have a PM and Wednesday evening service. The issue is, if my church "does" have these services scheduled, should I be there? I say "yes," church members should support their pastor and church family every time the church meets.

My schedule would be much more relaxed if I didn't have a mid-week service. However, it is stated in our constitution that we hold Sunday AM, PM, and a mid-week service. I enjoy each of these services because they are each unique in and of themselves as I stated in an earlier post.

I am an IFB partly because I have the freedom to run this church as I feel God would have me. I certainly would not go across town and tell another pastor that he is doing it wrong.

I think I can state a pretty strong biblical case for being there every time the church meets. That's my standard that I preach here and it has been receieved very well. Our Sunday PM is very well attended (minus bus children), and our Wednesday evening service only drops by about 10%.

Hopefully, this will give you a clearer picture of where I stand.

 

If that's the standard, and I were looking for a church, I would skip yours and go on the next one. One where I wouldn't be accused of not "supporting the church or pastor" for not going on Sunday night, or one that didn't have a Sunday night service to avoid the problem altogether.

I've had the opportunity to look for a church to attend when I was not in ministry myself. It is an eye opening experience. There were services that were morning only but went extremely long. There were churches that expected one to be at every service to be a "real" member. There were churches that had home groups or Bible studies but made it hard to find out when and where.

Ultimately, because most churches have an unwritten rule about attending church whenever the doors are open, one ultimately needs to choose one that offers only what one desires or risk being made a second class Christian in the eyes of the church leadership.

I personally prefer Sunday morning (out by 11:30) and a midweek Bible study (either in the home or the church).

 

Nothing like telling God how much time of yours he can have. Do you treat your employer with the same limitations? Your statement reminds me of the "$3 worth of God."

 

I am a 911 operator, and sometimes, I am scheduled to work on Sundays....quite often, as a matter of fact. I attend church on Wed night when that happens. I am as involved in my church as my weird work schedule will let me be. I don't fell any guilt, because I am there when I can be there.

Just thought I would throw that into the mix...

 

How many services does it take to make one spiritual?

No church ever encouraged me by showing up to hear me preach as much as they did by discipling people.

John said, "I have no greater joy than this, to hear of my children walking in the truth."

My counseling load went to almost zero when I started discipling people and they discipled people.

You will get a whole lot busier if you do away with a mid-week service and spend that time teaching others how to do ministry and share their faith by dicipling them. People will get eager to grow and you will so busy with them that you won't have time for those who want to sit on the side.

Those I discipled I took with me to do ministry. They memorized one verse each week. We had a time of prayer and Bible study once a week and then later on most of them began a Bible study or two on their own. Plus they studied about 3 to 7 hours each week preapring for the lesson that we discussed once a week. I do this for two years. During that time they will have done a survey of the OT and NT and reading their bible as well. They will have learned some basics of how to interpret scripture and do a Bible study. Tey will also have learend how to share their faith and pray. At the end of two years the majority will be starting a Bible study on their own. It can be done but most churches think discipleship is all about going to church and hearing somebody stand up in front. I hope they didn't teach you in seminary that you can only get in seminary classes. We must teach the people to learn and feed themselves. We are to be leadrs that follow Christ by making disciples and teaching them to do all Christ commanded. He commanded believers to make disciples. We show the new believers how it is done. We need to teach them to rely on Christ not us. We will not always be there for them.

At the end of a week they will have spent a minimum of 3 hours in study, about 30 minutes each day just reading their Bible and praying, one hour in Sunday Schol and one hour in the worship service and two hours of prayer and Bible study in a group. How does that compare with the Bible they will get hearing you preach so many times each week?

Sometime just figure out how many disciples you would have made at the end of thirty years if you made one every year and each of them continued to make one in a period of thirty years. The answer is 536,870,912. I see no evidence in scripture where believers met to just meet and hear someone preach. Jesus certainly did not do that with His disciples. He taught them how to do ministry and share their faith. He sent them out two by two. I have seen a church radically change in one time of knocking on doors in one afternoon.