Not under Law --Under Grace!

I will eventually Amy, but I want to give my moderator the first opportunity first.

 

Are you still calling Christ a liar? Can you demonstrate to us that you are not, Bob?

 

post in grace not in malice.
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While we're waiting, I will say this. I know that both of those passages are true because God's word is true. I also know that I have been born again (and cannot sin) and I have the Holy Spirit in me, yet I still sin. Is it my flesh and my spirit warring against one another? Is my spirit incapable of sinning?

 

What is the issue about? I don't mean the inter-personal stuff I'm reading.
Is it about this, quoting DHK: "If we say that we have no sin we make Christ a liar. You say that one who is born again cannot sin."?

Perhaps this may be a - I say, a, solution, that, If WE, say that WE, have no sin, we make CHRIST, a liar - who is the sinner's beat friend! But, when it is God's WORD that says 'that one who is born again cannot sin', then WE, are silenced in our presumptuousness, and can but wonder and pray the Father of mercies, O God, forgive me a sinner, how could I ever have thought I cannot sin?
I always say, don't kill the paradox. We have answers to but very few things, but think we cannot sin - how arrogant!

 

GE:

Here's another attempt at an answer - my own preferred one: I believe ALL sins forgiven - mine included - had been forgiven through Christ once for ever; Therefore the full measure of my sins and sinfulness, had been atoned for by Christ in His dying AND RISING. My whole life has since been hid in Christ in God - I no longer live, but Christ lives in me, said Paul. Then how could Paul have sinned more than what had been forgiven him? And I may claim the same by faith, God be praised for it.
NB: Notice the feeling of the present in that text, our life is hid in Christ in God.

 

Gerhard, the question I asked was how can these two passages be reconciled?
1 John 1:8-10
1 John 3:9
I do not think I cannot sin. I know that I do. But, the scriptures say that one who is born again cannot sin. How do we bring the 2 passages together?

 

I have met people who think they cannot commit sin; they have told me it bluntly. They are from the Full Gospel Church of God (Benoni Congregation, RSA) It is a doctrinal point with them.

 

Then reconcile the verses that you have posted. Why won't you do it.
If we say that we have no sin we make Christ a liar.
You say that one who is born again cannot sin.
Logically, you make Christ a liar, unless you are able to explain how these Scriptures are reconciled. Instead of just quoting them over and over again, try to explain them so it doesn't look to others like you are calling Christ a liar. The Bible doesn't contradict itself. What is it saying here?

And what is a sin unto death? You have yet to explain that also.
__________________
DHK
1. Well let me see, the first question is if we say we have no sin we make Christ a liar?

There is an inward man and there is an outward man. The outward man is the flesh and has yet to be delivered from

corruption so therefore it is subject to sin and needs and advocate with God, if it does sin. The outward man will not receive

its change unto the resurrection when this corruptable man shall put on incorruption and receive a body liken unto Christ which

can’t sin and will be perfect.

Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the

children of God.
So therefore, outwardly we cannot say we have no sin for we are living in a body that is perishing everyday.

Romans, chapter 7

18: For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19: For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20: Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21: I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22: For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24: O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25: I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

2. Second question is "you say that one who is born again cannot sin.

It is not the outward man that is born again but it is the inward man which is where Jesus said I will come in and go no more out.

Romans, chapter 7
18: For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19: For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20: Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21: I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22: For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24: O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25: I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

So, we see that it is in the outward that sin abounds but in the inward man we have no sin for we cannot sin for we have been born of God and therefore cannot sin.

Isa 61:10 ¶ I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh [himself] with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth [herself] with her jewels.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

So if we say the inward man sinneth we are saying that the Spirit of the Lord that dwelleth in us is sinning.
This is the part when the natural death come will go to be with Jesus until the resurrection when it will be reunited with the body which will at that time be also without sin or corruption.

3. A sin and a sin unto death.

First there are sins, such as getting angry as I did by DHK saying I called Christ a liar and have to repent of such so I certainly am glad we have and advocate with God. There are many sins, so I will quote this one again if you will forgive me for it explains the weakness of the flesh where there is sin.

Romans, chapter 7

18: For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19: For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20: Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21: I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22: For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24: O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25: I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

3 a. Sin unto death.

Romans, chapter 6
16: Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17: But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18: Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19: I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20: For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

Now all sin is unto death unless you repent of them but there are some sins you can’t repent of and as all know there is

Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost which there are many different definitions for this but I believe its to say God has an

unclean Spirit.

Now lets just take one of those sins which adultery and if we are forgiven and paid by the blood of Christ then it is not

against us anymore and then being saved we don’t do those thing anymore for God said I will make a new covenant, I will put

my laws in their hearts and write them in their minds. I don’t believe in falling from Grace for we are kept by the power of God

but God felt it necessary to put scripture in the Bible if someone did fall and its as follows:

Heb. 6:
"4": For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

"5": And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

"6": If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame

Now, lets go back to the adultery which was a sin unto death but we were forgiven of it and saved but according to the above

scripture if we go back to that life style we have put God to an open shame and the blood of Jesus that was applied to our

soul and wash us clean we have wasted it, cast it to the ground and spit on it. So therefore according to God it is impossible

to renew such a one to repentance again. ( that also is a sin unto death).

Now, this is my understand of God’s Holy word. I didn’t receive this overnight but I have been at this for going on 35 years. I

have given my life to the Lord and His word. I will be held accountable for what I have just posted but I am willing to die on

it. God Bless and Amen,

 

GE:
My point was to show that the one verse supposes us the assumers: If WE .... The other verse is God who never assumes but knows all things: What is born of God CANNOT sin more than HE provided forgiveness for - a; and b: What is born of God in fact is not of such nature that it is able to or capable of sinning -- or it would not be born of God.

But you are absolutely right, and I think the full answer and the satisfactory reconciling of the two texts, exactly lies in the reality of the conflict within every true believer between the old man and the NEW -- Romans 7. If one has not been born of Spirit, one would live on in sin unperturbed untill the last day when GOD WILL RAISE HIM from the dead with an accute sense of both his own wantonness, and, of "the power of His resurrection" - forfeited and lost for ever. That should be dismal!

 

To be found lost in the resurrection, must give one a keen sense of what it means to be under the Law; that's why it's called the judgment -- woe unto such!
To be found saved in the resurrection of Christ, is the only thing - a thing of faith - that gives one some idea of what it means to be under Grace --Rejoice, rejoice! (sung Isaiah) It is the language of those born of Spirit able to overcome unto the end.

 

The focus in 1John 3 appears to speak to the one who "literally" and "really" (as in - in real deeds) practices law breaking. For sin is transgression of the Law by definition.

1 John 3
4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

Romans 6
5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so thatwe would no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.
10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead,


13 -and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14For sin shall not be master over you[/b], for you are not under law but under grace.

15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin[/b], you
became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

 

For those who prefer to "read less"

1John 3
7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
...
9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

Romans 6
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

 

Brother Bob,
"Heb. 6:
"4": For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

"5": And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

"6": If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame"

GE:
This text of course supposes the IMPOSSIBLE -- NOT, any, unlikely. "If they shall fall away" is just as great an IMPOSSIBILITY as would it have been to "renew THEM": the impenitent or 'failers'.

 

I believe that is what I said GE

I don’t believe in falling from Grace for we are kept by the power of God

but God felt it necessary to put scripture in the Bible if someone did fall and its as follows:

 

I guess they have not read John's first letter then, have they?


"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar, and his word has no place in our lives." (1:8-10)

This indicates also that we are not automatically forgiven. Atoned for, yes, but according to John, we must confess for forgiveness. The way I understand it, that is because atonement is a legal thing -- justification. Christ did that once and for all for ALL men. But forgiveness is a personal thing between two people and it restores a relationship muddied due to some kind of wrong which had been done by one.

 

In the early days of the SDA church history - SDAs encountered and rejected a small group who taught this idea of "holy flesh" and not being "able to sin"

Never-the-less the bible does speak clearly about those who think that sinning-our-way to heaven is the model given to us in the bible. So we have the command of 1John 2:1 "These things I write to you that you SIN NOT" but it ALSO includes the provision for forgiveness when we do.


1John 3
7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
...
9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

Romans 6
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

 

How can sin be atoned for and not forgiven?

The American Tract Society Dictionary defines ATONEMENT

The satisfaction offered to divine justice for the sins of mankind by the death of Jesus Christ; by virtue of which all true penitents believing in Christ are reconciled to God, are freed from the penalty of their sins, and entitled to eternal life. The atonement by Jesus Christ is the great distinguishing peculiarity of the gospel, and is presented in a great variety of terms and illustrations in both the Old Testament and the New. See REDEMPTION, SACRIFICES. The English word atonement originally denoted the reconciliation of parties previously at variance. It is used in the Old Testament to translate a Hebrew word which means a covering; implying that by a Divine propitiation the sinner is covered from the just anger of God. This is actually effected by the death of Christ; while the ceremonial offerings of the Jewish church only secured from impending temporal judgments, and typified the blood of Jesus Christ which "cleanseth us from all sin."

If one has been freed from the penalty for ones sins, why would they have to confess their sins afterwards as Helen has said above?

Why confess the sins if we already have the atonement? Atonement guarantees the Believer the assurance that Christ's blood paid the price.

Yet, we see John addressing believers and telling them they must confess their sins.