Not under the Law

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by freeatlast, Jun 27, 2011.

  1. freeatlast

    freeatlast
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    I am of the belief that the phrase "not under the law" is very miss-understood by many today. In fact there are those who name the name of the Lord and do not even want to hear anything mentioned about commands or rules or what ever some may like to call it.
    I would like to hear what you feel is being said when scripture says "not under the law".
    I am giving the passages where it is used as well as some about law. So what is your understanding?

    Rom 6:14, 15 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
    What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid

    Gal. 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


    1Cor 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law

    How are we not under the law and still subject to it at least in some part based on 1Cor 14:34 as Paul points out? Again what do you understand is meant by not being under the law?
     
  2. Scarlett O.

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    How are we "not under the law" and yet still subject to it in part?

    Laws pertaining to things like murder, sexual sins, coveting, immorality, justice, mercy, and others still carry weight.

    Why?

    Because LONG before there ever was a nation of Israel and LONG before the law was every born, murder was a sin and it still is. Adultery, lying, cruel treatment of others, homosexuality, and more were sins from the beginning and are still sins today. It was a sin when Cain killed Abel. It was a sin when Rueben has sex with his father's concubine. It was a sin when the residents of Sodom and Gomorrah participated in homosexuality. It was a sin when Abraham and Sarah lied to two different kings and led them to believe that they were not married. It was a sin when Joseph's brothers allowed their anger at their neglectful father to torment them to a hatred of their brother. All of this took place centuries BEFORE the law ever existed.


    How could they be sins when there was no law?

    Because of God's Holy Nature. We are to emulate Him - the Bible says to "be holy as [He] is holy". God does not murder, steal, lie, and covet. He cannot be cruel, unjust, unmerciful, or unloving. He will not turn his back on his people and seek out another people to love. Ergo, we are to be just like Him as close as we can.


    To me, the Holy standard of God's Nature runs like a golden thread from out of Himself into the universe before He said "let there be light", into the Creation, the Garden, and it threaded it's way OUT of the Garden, into the nation of Israel, the law, and it threaded it's way OUT of the law and INTO the New Testament and beyond and His Holy Standard still abides today.


    We are to avoid sexual sins and sins of mistreating others and disrespecting God NOT because they are written down in the book of Leviticus or Deuteronomy, but because these sins represent what is opposed to the holy nature of God.

    If we were to abstain from these sins BECAUSE they are written down in Leviticus, then we would have to participate in ALL of their lawful consequences. People today who committed adultery would have to be stoned in the streets. Young girls who become promiscuous would have to be burned at the stake. Young men who were rebellious would have to be publicly stoned. To adhere to the law for the law's sake, says Paul, is to adhere to ALL of it. And he says that people who do that are "alienated from Christ" and "fallen from grace". [Galatians 5:1-4]
     
  3. Scarlett O.

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    Let me preface by saying that I love reading the law. I love all of Leviticus and Deuteronomy. Christians should read it and they should read all of the Old Testament.

    I believe the Bible when it says -

    2 Tim 3:16-17 "All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work."

    As to your asking what does "not under the law" mean, I think it means exactly what it says that it means.

    But, let's allow scripture to answer your question.

    • Galatians 3:19-25 says that the law was merely a "schoolmaster" that we were confined under. There was no justification, no righteousness, and no faith found there. And when Jesus came, we were no longer under that schoolmaster.
    • Romans 7:12 says that the law was holy, just, and good because it pointed the way to sin. But Hebrews 7,8, and 9 (specifically 7:18, 8:13, and 9:9-10) explain just how temporary that law was. These passages use adjectives describing the Old Covenant as "weak", "decaying", "waxing old", "vanishing away", "disannulling (putting away, rejecting, abolishing)", and "symbolic".
    Why such strong language from the author of Hebrews? Because there is NO power in the law nor was there ever any power to SAVE. Keeping the law does not add one shred of credibility to one's salvation nor make him or her more "spiritual" or justified before God.

    • Romans 10:1-5 says that people who live under the law for the sake of righteousness are ignorant of the righteous of God. It also says that Christ marks the END of the law for righteousness. Paul even says that Moses tried to tell the people that to live under the law for the sake of righteousness meant you had to live under ALL of it.
    • Galatians 5:1-4 says that the law is a "yoke of slavery". Paul also reiterates here that living under just ONE of the laws for justification's sake means that Christ is no benefit to you and that you are obligated to keep the law in it's entirety.
    What does that mean?

    It means that someone who claims that he or she will not wear a tattoo because the Law claims it to be a sin and that we must obey the Levitical Law, is bound to obey ALL of the law.

    That person must make animal sacrifices and keep all of the civil code. If he is a man, he must not shave and cannot plant more than one type of crop in his garden. And if she is a woman, she is to be ceremonially unclean for so many days after each menstrual cycle and after each time she has sex with her husband. It means that if their brother-in-law commits adultery that they must kill him and if their 19-year-old son get in trouble with the law for excessive speeding tickets that they must drag him in the streets and kill him by throwing rocks at his head until his brains fall out.

    Now, if someone makes a personal choice not to wear a tatto because God once associated it with pagan practices - that's fine. That's a logical defense of an opinion and that is not living "under the law."
     
    #3 Scarlett O., Jun 27, 2011
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2011
  4. Scarlett O.

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    And......... once last thing. (I promise)

    Consider what Paul says in Galatians 5:1-4 and 13. [1] Christ has liberated us into freedom. Therefore stand firm and don't submit again to a yoke of slavery. [2] Take note! I, Paul, tell you that if you get circumcised, Christ will not benefit you at all. [3] Again I testify to every man who gets circumcised that he is obligated to keep the entire law. [4] You who are trying to be justified by the law are alienated from Christ; you have fallen from grace!..................... [13]For you are called to freedom, brothers; only don't use this freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but serve one another through love. [14] For the entire law is fulfilled in one statement: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

    What does Christian liberty mean?

    It means that there is nothing in the law that when violated is going to send you to hell on that account all by itself. Our personal and individual sins don't condemn us. Our sin nature condemns us. We aren't sinners because sin. We sin because we are sinners first - born with that nature. Like being born right-handed or left-handed. It means that one's righteousness is not connected with the law in any way, shape, or form.

    It means that the civil and the ceremonial law found in Leviticus doesn't even apply to Christans. Period. And the "moral" law (I guess it's ALL moral, I suppose), is applicable today because it is representative of God's Holy nature and we are to be imitators of Him.

    For example, it's not a sin to get a tattoo. It just isn't. But is it wise? Let's think. How many young men have professed their love for their girlfriends by getting their name tattooed on their necks. And then how many of those young men MARRIED someone else!! I know I would not enjoy being married to a wonderful Christian man with the name "CARMELITA" tattooed on his neck. One has to use his or her common sense here.

    Drinking alcohol is not a sin. Drunkeness is most definitely a sin. Therefore, while we have the liberty to drink without condemnation, yet we know that drunkeness is a sin - extreme caution to point of abstaining for most people should be taken in this area. And how do we "serve others" in the area as Paul said with our Christian liberty. Certainly one would never drink his glass of wine or beer in front of a weaker brother or in front of a minor or in the presence of someone who might think, "Well, he's drinking and he's a Christian, so I guess I can, too." With liberty, Paul says, comes service to others. For that reason alone, I choose to abstain.

    Paul says very clearly that liberty is freedom from the chains of the law, but that a Christian should not just run "willy-nilly" off into "liberty land" and live for the flesh. He or she should instead, use that wonderful liberty in service to others.

    For a Christian to think, "Well, the Bible says that the law has been annulled and I guess that means that I can do whatever I please" is a sign of a very weak-minded Christian.

    A Christian should use his or her liberty, according to Paul, NOT to live in abandon, but to serve.

    When in doubt about "do's" and "don't", we are to be imitators of Christ and God [1 Corinthians 11:1; 1 Thessalonians 1:6; Ephesians 5:1] and God says that we are to be holy as He is holy [Leviticus 20:7; 1 Peter 1:15-16]. And Christ, Himself, said that the greatest two commandments were to love God and to love others as we love ourselves. If we get THOSE TWO commandments under our belt, we won't have to worry about anything else.
     
    #4 Scarlett O., Jun 27, 2011
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2011
  5. freeatlast

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    This raises some questions. Where does the bible say to burn someone? Also you did not answer the question, "what do you understand is meant by not being under the law?" While I agree that we are to obey the law because of Who we are related to, but if we did not have the books of the law we would not know what is or is not of the Lord to obey. If you do not believe that then I suggest that you go on a missionary trip and win someone to the Lord who has never heard of the bible. Then just leave them alone and see if their lives change without giving them a bible to read.
    The written law is very important, but I say, so are the written consequences for breaking it as the consequences for breaking the written moral law are as much of God as are the commands and if we are going to stand for obeying His standards then we also should hold to His standards of punishment for breaking them.
    I have no problem with the death penalty or for any of the other consequences mentioned in the moral laws. I wish we as a nation would re-adopt those standards.
     
  6. freeatlast

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    The above quote was just a true for the OT so what is your point.
     
  7. Amy.G

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    The Law is our schoolmaster telling us what sin is. But the phrase "not under the Law" means that we are not subject anymore to it's penalty of death. Christ has fulfilled the Law and died for us, once for all. We are now under grace. Grace is not a license to sin, but because of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, we don't want to sin. He has changed our "want to". It's our heart's desire now to please God even though we stumble sometimes and sin. But our sins as Christians will not cause us to suffer eternal death, but rather hinder our relationship with God, bring misery to our lives on this earth and possibly the severe chastening of God.
     
  8. Scarlett O.

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    "And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire." - Leviticus 21:9



    See my second post.

    My point is that many people today believe that a violation of the commandments of God send you to hell. I have counseled a sobbing mother whose older son confessed to her that he had tried a beer with his friends and was sorry and did not like it and wasn't going to do it again. She had been taught by an overbearing father and preacher that just one sip of an alcoholic beverage was your one way ticket to hell. No grace applicable. Her entire denomination believes that.

    There are a relatively FEW Baptists today who believe that women who wear pants are in violation of the law and are NOT saved. I've spoken with them personally. The mother of the family told me that she teaches her children to pray for the salvation of women whom they see wearing pants. That's believing that the breaking of the law can send you to hell all by itself.

    There are quite a few more example. Fathers who have disowned sons sporting tattoos, etc....

    There are a handful of people from all denominations who have their pet cherry-picked verses from the Law who preach, teach, and swear that the breaking of those pet verses send you to hell.

    That was my point.

    I have explained to you the best that I can what I believe pertaining the law and what the scripture says about it. You can agree or disgree. That's your Christian liberty to do so. LOL.
     
    #8 Scarlett O., Jun 27, 2011
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2011
  9. freeatlast

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    Thank you for the response.
     
  10. freeatlast

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    Amy I agree and this is one reason why the moral laws of God should be taught.
     
  11. revmwc

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    Rom 6:14, 15 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid

    Sin had dominion over us when we were sinners, we were bond servants of sin. We served it but the Old Sin nature in us no longer has us under bondage. We were saved by Grace not the Law, we no longer offer the sacrifices the Law required, no longer do we offer the Passover Lamb because Christ became that Lamb.
    Shall we sin becasue we no longer under bondage God forbid that we should serve sin again. Many take the Law as the 10 commandments but the Law had many requirements in them, the 10 Commandments were the standard by which one would have to keep in all ways to be righteous enough for God to accept and Christ was able to do that. Those commandments are still the standard we see as what God expects if we don't accept Christ as Saviour and we all fall short on those.
    The Pentatuch was often refered to as the Law so in the 1 Corinthians passage the divine order set out was Adam created first and then Eve. Man was the head of the woman and the family and as such he became guilty of sin when he ate of the fruit, while Eve transgressed because sh was deceived. The responsibility for the fall rested squarely on the man as the Head and the man is still accountable for that headship that was the Divine Institution God placed on the Family and it is unchanging. The sacrifices ended because the True sacrifice came into the world and fulfilled the Law (Sacrifices).
    This is of course revology (off the top of my head) I didn't consult any reference books.
    Most of my post come that way although many I have consulted in the past the teachings I am debating this one is straight off the cuff.
     
    #11 revmwc, Jun 27, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 27, 2011
  12. Amy.G

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    They absolutely should be taught, but Jesus summed it all up when He gave us 2 commandments.

    Matthew 22:37-40 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


    However ALL of scripture is God breathed, so any commands against immoral behavior (s*xual) should be obeyed as well.
     
  13. JesusFan

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    Christians are NO longer under the penalty/curse that the law held against us, in that NONE of us could ever measure up to it standard...

    Jesus died in our place, fulfilled perfectly law requirementsfor a Holy live, and THAT has been reckoned to us...

    We still are people under God, but now we are to keep infilled witht he HS, as his nature and power in us enables us to live lives pleasing to God...

    Not external law, but Law on our hearts, and can live for God under enabling of the HS in us...

    In one sense God already sees us complete in Christ, as His law keeping credited to us forever, but whilre on earth, get daily more like Him, and that gets done by work of HS in our lives!
     
  14. Iconoclast

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    This might be a helpful start on this issue as you can see there is much confusion on this issue. here from the 1689;
     
  15. Amy.G

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    Where is the confusion? It seems we're all in agreement.

    :confused: <-------oh there it is.
     
  16. freeatlast

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    Yes but the law never saved anyone. Not even through the animal sacrifices. So how are we not under the law? What law is Paul refering to?
     
  17. revmwc

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    The O.T. system of the Law, the sacrifices were required to cover their sins with the blood of animal sacrifice. The blood of animals is no longer required thus we are no longer under the requirements of the Law to offer sacrifice for our sins, the sacrifice is paid and our sins are removed because the true Lamb the Saviour has atoned for them. We are no longer under the required to offer animal sacrifice to atone for our sins, for the Blood of Christ has fully atoned for the sins of all.
     
  18. freeatlast

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    The moral law doth for ever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof, and that not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it; neither doth Christ in the Gospel any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.
    ( Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8, 10-12; James 2:10, 11; Matthew 5:17-19; Romans 3:31


    Iconoclast, are you saying as Christians we need to keep, obey the moral commandments? If so why is their so few messages about it and why are so many who confess Christ so against them?
     
  19. freeatlast

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    So your saying that the phrase "not under the law refers to the OT sacrifices and not the moral commandments, correct?
     
  20. Iconoclast

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    Amy.....:laugh:....good one.
    The study of the christian and law has alot more to it than we have uncovered here yet. We agree that the ceremonial aspects of the law have been completed at the cross.

    some do not make any distiction however between the ten commandments and the ceremonial and judicial laws of Israels ot theocracy.

    I will post more on this later as I have to go back to work soon, but here are some ideas posted that are off base...or lets say partially correct, but mostly in error.
     

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