NT Wright's view on Heaven

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by evangelist6589, May 10, 2016.

  1. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2010
    Messages:
    8,367
    Likes Received:
    105
    I believe it was NT Wright that said in a book that Heaven will not be some space in the universe but will be the here and now and earth. So when we die we will wake up on the earth, but in paradise. What do you think of this?
     
  2. JonC

    JonC
    Expand Collapse
    Lifelong Disciple
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    6,969
    Likes Received:
    371
    I think NT is wright :).

    In the book "Surprised by Hope", Wright is not talking about where we go "when we die" but of Heaven. D.A. Carson makes the same comment in the last of his "What is the Gospel" series. Our culture has fictionalized Heaven and, unfortunately, I think that this has crept into our churches and homes.
     
  3. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2002
    Messages:
    6,658
    Likes Received:
    189
    Wright teaches (as do I) that heaven and earth will be unified in the end. The image of New Jerusalem descending from the heavens in Revelation is a picture of this completed unification.

    This is part of a much larger theology about the past and current connections between the rule of God (aka, Kingdom of God) and the earth. It ties into the pictures of the Tabernacle, the Temples, Jesus, and now all of those who are in the Kingdom as being intersections of heaven and earth, where God's rule is established upon this earth in preparation for the coming complete restoration of all things.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. agedman

    agedman
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    4,258
    Likes Received:
    187
    I haven't read Wright on this topic, but I do rely upon the Scriptures.

    The Revelation clearly states that THIS heaven and THIS earth pass away in a fiery demise.

    There is a NEW heaven and a NEW earth, given for all eternity. Everything is new - EVEN the lake of fire, for both death and hell are cast into that eternal place.

    The new heaven and earth have yet to be disclosed, but are being prepared, just as Christ stated.

    There is no attraction to this earth, nor to the current heavens for me. I long for a new place. A place that the enemies of God have never set their foot upon, have never seen with their perverted eyes, have never breathed of the purity and have not been moistened by the stream.

    No, if that thinking comes from Wright, then that thinking is wrong, and specifically not found supported in Scriptures. It is not only wrong, but heretically wrong. For it denies the very bold and clear statements of Scriptures.

    Certainly, God "restores all things" not by rebuilding upon or modifying the old, but by REPLACING that which was corrupted with the incorruptible.

    It is seen first in the that of the believer - we are "NEW creatures created in Christ Jesus." Not the old remade, not the old made live again, but a very new replacement in which the old will have not a single hold upon.

    It is seen in the Revelation as the old is done away and passes out of existence and that which is new is presented as the replacement.

    Why would anyone want to hang around something dead and dying as this earth and heaven are?

    If you are teaching that THIS CURRENT heaven and earth are saved in the end, and somehow united, that is grave error!
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Messages:
    4,894
    Likes Received:
    27
    Agedman is correct here. And especially in looking to Scripture for this understanding. The Scripture is clear in many places that the heavens and earth (which I take for everything physical) is destined to the fire. There will be a new heavens and a new earth wherein righteousness is. Further, look to Christ. If Heaven is not a place where we go when we die here, then where did our Lord Jesus go when He ascended? And to where did He promise the penitent thief he would be when Jesus came into His kingdom?

    Brethren, when we die here we go to where the Lord is, immediately, without any pause or any waiting. If we are raised with Christ then we are already seated with Him in heavenly places. And when we shed this tent we will be with the Lord until the last Day when He will raise up our mortal bodies to take immortality.
     
  6. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Messages:
    4,894
    Likes Received:
    27
    And let me add one thing. O that the day may hasten! How I long to shed this body of death and be with our Lord Jesus. I long to see His beautiful face and fall at His feet and worship him freed of sin and clothed in His perfect righteousness. Come Lord Jesus!
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  7. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,184
    Likes Received:
    207
    N.T. Wright is the last person I would read to know what the scriptures taught on any aspect of salvation including heaven. His view on justification is absolutely deplorable and "another gospel." His view on the ordinances are sacramental and deplorable. No wonder his view on heaven is just as deplorable.

    At death we enter into the present 3rd heaven to be with the Lord. After the return of Christ and the Great White Seat judgment this earth and heaven will pass away and a new heaven and earth will be created wherein is no sin or the consequences of sin as you have rightly said. And, yes, on that new earth the new Jerusalem will "come down" out of the new heavens and sit upon a new earth without oceans.

    I agree with you.
     
  8. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,559
    Likes Received:
    274
    ...spoken like a true blue ever so judgmental Landmarker.
     
  9. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,516
    Likes Received:
    49
    Funny that the OP question was what do you think, rather than what does scripture say. In context the heaven in view is the third heaven, the abode of God, a spiritual rather than physical realm. Anywhere God resides, within us or beyond creation is "heaven - the kingdom of God."

    Scripture speaks of heaven (and heavens) three ways, heaven, the first heaven refers to the earth's atmosphere, where birds fly and clouds swirl. The second heaven refers to space where the moon, sun and stars hang out, and the third heaven, paradise refers to the abode of God. Right now, God the Father, God the Son, Angels, and the spirits of the saved are in heaven, even through the saved who are physically alive are also on earth.

    Our job is not to worry about the New Heaven of end times, our job is to help save as many as we can right now, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.
     
  10. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,347
    Likes Received:
    788
    The heaven in that verse is referring to the upper atmosphere of the earth not the abode of God.
     
  11. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,347
    Likes Received:
    788
    Silly nitpicking. It was inferred that he wanted to know how we understood scripture on the matter.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  12. JonC

    JonC
    Expand Collapse
    Lifelong Disciple
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    6,969
    Likes Received:
    371
    is that different from what NT Wright teaches on Heaven?


    BTW, Evan, there is a bit of disagreement regarding NT Wright. While many (including myself) don't find everything he holds to be true (Wright being Anglican and I being Baptist makes that a bit obvious :)), some almost lean towards espousing nothing he holds as holding benefit to the Church. Others reject some doctrines (most notably, his view of Justification) while recognizing his contributions in other areas. Piper, for example, wrote a book countering Wright's view of justification while praising both his scholarship and contributions to the Church (The Future of Justification). It is also interesting that some (including Piper) who argue that Wright's position is confusing and perhaps incomplete as a doctrine also stop short of declaring what he has actually concluded as false.

    I'd recommend picking up "Surprised by Hope" and reading it slowly alongside scripture. You may be surprised Biggrin.

    This pretty much sums up my opinion:
    http://kuyperian.com/reformed-people-read-n-t-wright/
     
  13. agedman

    agedman
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    4,258
    Likes Received:
    187
    Such is not consistent with the limited Scriptures given and not consistent with that scene presently in which believers abide.

    The immediacy of the passing away of the heaven and earth is followed by the great throne judgement of God. There is only ONE place that the believers are ushered into after that time, that is the New heaven and earth, and the Scriptures are very specific about not only the conditions of that place by the Father and Son's presence in that place.

    Nope, the current abode of God has been polluted by the enemy and accuser of the believers. The pictures given in the early passages of the Revelation of that place is one far removed from that scene given of the final estate.

    "Behold, I make all things new" FOLLOWS the display of the new heaven and earth. Not given to be seen until then. God is in the "all things new" and that is clearly stated in the Scriptures.
     
  14. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2010
    Messages:
    8,367
    Likes Received:
    105
    Van that's not what I implied! Scripture is authority of which these authors write about.
     
  15. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,347
    Likes Received:
    788
    Your view is not consistent with what we know about God and this world is corrupted. Further, the word heaven is a regular word used to describe the atmosphere of the earth throughout scripture. It is this world the earth, the heavens and the seas that need renewing not the abode of God. That has never been corrupted.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  16. agedman

    agedman
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    4,258
    Likes Received:
    187
    The heaven and earth of Genesis 1:1-2 is NOT merely this world and the atmosphere of this world. It is also apparent by observation that the universe is not at peace any more than the earth is currently at rest. It is mere conjecture to consider that the very dwelling place of God was not impacted by Satanic influence.

    That enemy appears before the very presence of God, and was once in charge of 1/3 of the heavenly beings. You assume that God's dwelling place was not corrupted by the presence of the leader of such a rebellion. But there is no indication that such was not impacted nor continues to be impacted by the rebellion.

    In fact, it is clearly shown as to what that place is in the Revelation final chapters. Such depictions and that the Scriptures clearly indicate that both the earth and the heaven burn up, that not even stars are left shining indicate what purging that final times will be.

    Scriptures state that "ALL things become new." That ALL is and means ALL, including the dwelling place of God, for that same passage mentions exactly that place.
     
  17. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,347
    Likes Received:
    788
    Wow.......just wow! I will leave you to it. God Bless
     
  18. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2010
    Messages:
    8,367
    Likes Received:
    105

    Thanks but I was not talking about his view on Justification, but his view on heaven. I do have the book you mentioned.
     
  19. JonC

    JonC
    Expand Collapse
    Lifelong Disciple
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    6,969
    Likes Received:
    371
    C.ool, What did you think of it?
     
  20. Greektim

    Greektim
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    3,143
    Likes Received:
    118
    He has it. He hasn't stated whether he's read it yet. He got it at my behest. I always told him that if he was unhappy with it, I'd buy it from him.

    Wright argues that Christians incorrectly focus too much on life after death (heaven) when they should be focusing on life after life after death (new creation). So whatever you think Wright is saying about heaven, his point in Surprised By Hope is that we, like Paul and Isaiah and the author of Revelation, look for the restoration of all things and the new creation which has broken into the present in the resurrection of Jesus!

    With that said, the OP did not state correctly what Wright believes about either heaven or new creation (the 2 not to be confused). What a perpetual problem here on the BB--people misrepresenting NT Wright.
     
    • Like Like x 2

Share This Page

Loading...