Number saved at Pentecost

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Salty, Apr 15, 2015.

  1. Salty

    Salty
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    Acts 2:41 tells us that "...there were added unto them about three thousand souls"

    Now does that mean 3,000 people or 3,000 men?

    Remember at the feeding of the 5,000 we are told that only included men.

    Open for discussion.
     
  2. revmwc

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    That would mean 3000 souls. Men, women and children who had reached th age of accountability. A Soul is one that is breathing in air and can be redeemed.
     
  3. Greektim

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    So an unborn baby isn't or doesn't have a soul? Interesting. Perhaps you mean in the context it was used in Acts 2. I suspect so. But it sounded strange at first.

    This thread is ridiculous. Just b/c a gospel account says the feeding of the 5,000 were just males, does that mean every number of people from other books should be questioned?

    I like you, Salty. But is this a fruitful discussion?
     
  4. Van

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    I do not think "souls" refers exclusively to men, but to people which might be men or not.

    Christ is the guardian of our souls, and that would include women.
     
  5. Salty

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    Not questioning - just trying to understand.

    and thank you for those kind words.
     
  6. revmwc

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    Didn't say that the unborn don't have souls David made it clear God knew him when he was formed in his mothers womb. I said those that had a breathing soul and had reached the age of accountability.

    The unborn do have souls, the young do have souls, but until they reach the point of having knowledge of what good and evil are they are innocent.

    Just as Adam and Eve were innocent until they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
     
  7. Salty

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    Lets keep this on the OP - okay -
    5,000 feeding count was only men
    Would that thinking also go for the 3,ooo saved?
     
  8. preachinjesus

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    The key here is the term ψθχῆ and how Luke uses it across his two volume work.

    While the lexical meaning refers to "soul, life, or life-principal" (in BDAG), the meaning here is individuals. So 3,000 individuals (males and females) were added to the followers of the Way on the Day of Pentecost.

    Not 5,000, not 6,000...but 3,000.

    The subsequent usage in 2:43 seems to reinforce this meaning. The term is used generally to refer to a large group of individuals (males and females) who saw the signs and wonders and had the fear of God in them. Also, note the usage in 7:14 where an extended family is in view, clearly referring to males and females. Then finally (not because it is the only other reference, but for concision's sake) 27:37 where the number on the vessel is placed at 276 souls.

    Luke's usage in Acts (as well as the Gospel but not nearly as pointedly here) is that these are individuals. Males and females. So don't multiply. Its 3,000.
     
  9. Iconoclast

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    revmwc

    [/QUOTE]

    this is a falsehood.....they sinned in Adam and are guilty.
     
  10. PreachTony

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    As Paul wrote that we must hear the gospel preached, then believe on Christ, and call on His name to be saved, and Calvinism states that only the Elect are saved, since babies lack the ability to believe on Christ after hearing the preached gospel, and lack the ability to call on His name, is it safe to say that all babies who die in infancy are not Elect, and therefore hellbound?
     
  11. preachinjesus

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    Aaannnnd we're off topic...
     
  12. PreachTony

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    We pretty much went off-topic a while back. Salty tried valiantly to save it, but we're all just too obstinate for him. :smilewinkgrin:
     
  13. Darrell C

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    Just to stir the theological pot, lol, I take a little bit different view than the view that is most popular, and am in agreement with C.S. Lewis in believing that men are souls, not...men have souls.

    This understanding remedies the error of those who subscribe to soul sleep and annihilation, because their doctrine is heavily dependent upon imposing a strict view that makes the "soul" the/an immaterial aspect of man's existence.

    The reference to the three thousand "souls" is, in my view, no different than that we see when Paul speaks about the "souls" aboard the ship he was on. Doubtful he was referring to the immaterial essence of their being. Or when the man says to his soul, "Boy I sure have a lot of stuff..." it is doubtful he is speaking to his inner man, lol.

    There are three verses, perhaps, which might be raised to argue for soul being used to describe the/an immaterial aspect of men. Regardless, we have to properly place the use in each passage and determine, as you are doing here, whether the application should be viewed as a reference to the person in totality, or if the inner and immaterial aspect of man is in view.

    A good check might be Ezekiel 18, which many use to teach eternal punishment for the failure to obey God, in the statement, "The soul that sins shall die."

    Now if we say that a man that sins dies eternally, and in view here is his spiritual aspect dying, then it makes for a great fire and brimstone message. But if we acknowledge that in view is the Old Testament Standard, in which the penalty for sin according to the Law was physical death, then we do justice not only to the text but to some very simple and Basic Bible Principles which cannot be disputed, namely...works do not save on an eternal basis.

    When God created man He created a physical body and breathed the breath of life into him, and man became...a living soul. He did not receive a soul, but a spirit.

    When Christ died, and His resurrection appearances startled the disciples, it was not a soul He speaks of in regards to the inner man leaving the body in death:


    Luke 24:39

    King James Version (KJV)

    39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.



    Implied is that the make-up of man is spirit and body, the two, even as stated so early in Scripture in regards to man's creation...being a soul.

    It's a great study, and recommend it to anyone who wants to better witness to those who err in regards to soul sleep and annihilation. The Old Testament should be viewed in the primarily temporal nature that the limited revelation holds it in, and if we do that, when we consider the use of soul in the Old Testament we can clarify a great number of passages which are the basis of dispute among the brethren and those hostile to sound doctrine.


    God bless.
     
  14. Edward 1689er

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    Where, from the Bible, do find your "age of accountability" theory?
     
  15. Darrell C

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    Consider...


    Romans 2:5-6

    King James Version (KJV)

    5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

    6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:



    Rather than looking at this as judgment depends on good or bad deeds, but rather that God justly judges according to the revelation provided men, and their response to that Revelation, we can conclude that babies will justly also be judged according to their deeds. This does not negate the principle that all stand separated from God even at birth, but, even as God did not exact judgment on men prior to Christ's death, but instead bestowed grace (even for a murderer and adulterer like David), even so God's grace makes provision for those who are not held accountable to a response to the revelation of God due to physical conditions.

    In short, babies will not be held even to the standard Cain was, who murdered, yet was not immediately judged from an eternal perspective. Nor will they be held accountable to any standard that precedes the Cross. But we should remember that it was grace specifically that preceded the Cross that allowed a righteous God not to immediately exact the penalty of death. His longsuffering, not to mention His love for the world allows for man to respond, and man is not left to accomplish this on his own, for the Spirit of God has always ministered to the hearts of men. It is when that grace is rejected, resisted as Stephen put it, that culpability shifts from condemnation we are born into to specific guilt. That one sin man commits which cannot be forgiven is the rejection of forgiveness.

    God will judge all in accordance to the response to His Redemptive efforts. That judgment will be just, for He is just. Just as He made provision for grace for those not worthy (which is why it is called grace) prior to the provision of Christ, even so I believe He still makes provision for those incapable of understanding the Gospel, which would include those mentally impaired as well.

    God bless.
     
    #15 Darrell C, Apr 16, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 16, 2015
  16. Edward 1689er

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    Three thousand means three thousand. No more and no less. Three thousand.
     
  17. Salty

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    1) Scripture states "about three thousand souls"

    2) So Jesus only fed 5,000 - including women and children?

    Great question - but please start a new thread on that! That question is NOT part of the OP
     
  18. revmwc

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    First we see what David said when his son died as an infant in

    2nd Samuel 12:23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

    Now either David was going to torments or the child was going to Paradise and David would meet him there after death. Since the Holy Spirit allowed this to be written in the bible then the infant must be covered until it knows right from wrong, that is becomes accountable.

    We see Deuteronomy 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

    So David knew the baby would go to Paradise. Deuteronomy says that those children who in that day had no knowledge between good and evil would enter into the Land, that would also cover their eternal destiny if they had died.

    We see too James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
    To those who knoweth to do good, they have knowledge of good and evil it is sin, that is charged to them as sin.

    Therefore many of us conclude even the pastor I grew up under, concluded that until a child comes to the point of having knowledge of what sin truly is they will go to Heaven, they haven't reached the age of accountability. Now there is not a certain age when they become accountable some reach that place before others. But once they gain the knowledge of good and evil they become accountable. When Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil they had sin charged to them. Did they commit sins prior to this point we aren't told, the only thing God had forbade them was that fruit from that tree, the moment they ate from it they were expelled from the garden, Christ had to offer a sacrifice to cover their sin until the Promised seed of woman would come, that is Christ. They had to trust that God was going to send that savior in order to be saved, just as everyone in the old testament had to do. We look back and believe on the one who came as our sacrifice our propitiation that is Jesus Christ.
     
  19. Baptist Believer

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    The number for the feeding of the 5,000 probably only includes men, because men were the only ones considered important at the time of the event.

    At Pentecost, both men and women were speaking in tongues (please note that both men and women were in the Upper Room). Peter also makes reference to it by his selection from Joel 2:

    ‘And it shall be in the last days,’ God says,
    ‘That I will pour forth of My Spirit on all mankind;
    And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
    And your young men shall see visions,
    And your old men shall dream dreams;
    18 Even on My bondslaves, both men and women,
    I will in those days pour forth of My Spirit
    And they shall prophesy.

    What happened in Acts 2 vividly demonstrated that women were to have a large role in the church since the Spirit had given them the gift of tongues, just like the men. From that point on, we see women serving in the church in the roles of prophet, deacon, teacher and apostle.

    Therefore, the count of those converted at the time of Peter's sermon almost certainly included the number of women.
     
  20. Salty

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    Baptist Believer - I would say you have probably given the best answer so far.

    I cant quite say - it is conclusive - but the most reasonable.

    It is an interesting subject - but not one to split a church over. - (or is it? :smilewinkgrin:)
     

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