Numerology

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by ken1burton, Apr 6, 2002.

  1. ken1burton

    ken1burton
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    The original title of this topic was "God's timetable, The Awakening of Israel." It goes into the topic of numerology which is something by which so many folks are deluded. In my opinion the arguments that counter the initial post in this thread and the ensuing debate made it worthy of the library. Read through and follow the logic versus non-logic theme of this thread. My thanks to post-it and Don for their excellent counter examples to the "science" of numerology.

    Clint Kritzer
    Baptist Board Administrator


    God has a timetable for the awakening of Israel. This shows the Spirit of Deep sleep poured upon Israel in Isaiah:

    (ISAIAH 29:10) For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered. (KJV)
    (ISAIAH 29:11) And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: (KJV)

    (ROMANS 11:25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the
    fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (KJV)

    God does nothing without showing it first. No man knoweth the day or the hour. Not even the angels in heaven. I'm glad He did not mention angels on earth. You want angel status? Just add the Cubit to your stature as Jesus said. Adding the cubit seen in Revelation 21:17 takes the 144 with Judas forming a wall around Jesus to the ANGELS given charge over THEE. And in Their hands they shall bear Thee up.( UPON A CROSS at Golgotha.)

    (REVELATION 21:17) And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. (KJV)

    Here is the TOP level for man status: "Greater love has no man then this, that a man lay down His life for a friend." Christians lay down their lives in service even to their enemies=Angel status. So add the cubit.

    (AMOS 3:7) Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. (KJV)

    First the Similitude is Joshua:
    (JOSHUA 3:3) And they commanded the people, saying, When ye see the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, and the priests the Levites bearing it, then ye shall remove from your place, and go after it. (KJV)
    (JOSHUA 3:4) Yet there shall be a space between you and it, about two thousand cubits by measure: come not near unto it, that ye may know the way by which ye must go: for ye have not passed this way heretofore. (KJV)

    They would see the ARK at Calvary, raised by the priests at Golgotha. They were to follow Jesus but stay back 2,000 years. The Cross was 29 ad, the nation of Israel will follow Jesus in 2029 ad, (ABOUT 2,000 cubits)

    Now "Let tears run down like a river." the Second similitude in Ezekiel's temple vision.

    The day of the cross is seen as 2,000 years.

    (PSALMS 90:4) For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. (KJV)
    (ECCLESIASTES 6:6) Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place? (KJV)

    The 1,000 as yesterday when it is past is 1004 bc to 4 bc, the time David's son which died 7 days old was with God. (See post, "Thou son of David"). The 1,000 as a watch in the Night is the day of the cross as the 1,000 year reign of Christ. The rest of the dead lived not again till the 1,000 years was over, That was the Second day, Hosea 6:2, "After 2 days will He revive us, in the third day He shall raise us up."

    The tears run down as a river the day of the cross, and Ezekiel measures the River. The day of the cross is also seen as 4 6-hour periods, all Prophecies are fulfilled this day, The awakening of Israel is a future similitude for 2029 ad. The first picture as 4 6-hour periods is as a river divided into 4 heads (Garden of Eden). The day as 3 pictures, 1=anger, 2=fury, 3=wrath, so when it is asked was "God angry with the rivers?", Yes they are the same picture.

    (HABAKKUK 3:8) Was the Lord displeased against the rivers? was thine anger against the rivers? was thy wrath against the sea, that thou didst ride upon thine horses and thy chariots of salvation? (KJV)

    The third time period is the third day seen in Genesis. The waters gathered together, And He called the gathering of the waters together SEAS. The day as 4 6-hour periods is as the first 4 seals, the Four Horses. The day as 3 pictures: 1=Horses, 2=asses, 3=Camels.

    (ISAIAH 21:6) For thus hath the Lord said unto me, Go, set a watchman, let him declare what he seeth. (KJV)
    (ISAIAH 21:7) And he saw a chariot with a couple of horsemen, a chariot of asses, and a chariot of camels; and he hearkened diligently with much heed: (KJV)
    (ISAIAH 21:8) And he cried, A lion: My lord, I stand continually upon the watchtower in the daytime, and I am set in my ward whole nights: (KJV)

    Let me play watchman for a minute, I will rephrase what the watchman said. "I see the LION, He is the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, He is MY MY MY LORD. He is the first of the 4 beasts with 6-wings in Revelation 4:7. "A Lion, My Lord."

    (LAMENTATIONS 2:18) Their heart cried unto the Lord, O wall of the daughter of Zion, let tears run down like a river day and night: give thyself no rest; let not the apple of thine eye cease. (KJV)

    The day of the Cross has started and the tears like waters are running:
    (EZEKIEL 47:1) Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the forefront of the house stood toward the east, and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south side of the altar. (KJV)
    (EZEKIEL 47:2) Then brought he me out of the way of the gate northward, and led me about the way without unto the utter gate by the way that looketh eastward; and, behold, there ran out waters on the right side. (KJV)
    (EZEKIEL 47:3) And when the man that had the line in his hand went forth eastward, he measured a thousand cubits, and he brought me through the waters; the waters were to the ancles. (KJV)
    The first 6-hours seen as the Feet, the Ten disciples as Toes, (Daniel's vision) Peter and Judas as the heels, "He who has eaten bread with Me has lifted up His heel against Me."

    (EZEKIEL 47:4) Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through the waters; the waters were to the knees. Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through; the waters were to the loins. (KJV)
    The second 6-hours to the Knees, "Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess as all the men of war was gathered together, they bowed the knee saying "Hail King of the Jews." The third 6-hours to the loins "Gird up Thy lions LIKE A MAN." Third beast with 6- wings seen with the face of a man.

    (EZEKIEL 47:5) Afterward he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over. (KJV)

    The fourth 6-hour period from noon to sunset is when Jesus is hanging on a Cross, A river to SWIM in, and He is as SWIMMING.

    (ISAIAH 25:11) And he shall spread forth his hands in the midst of them, as he that swimmeth spreadeth forth his hands to swim: and he shall bring down their pride together with the spoils of their hands. (KJV)
    The fourth time period is the MIDST of the week, The Midst when He makes a end of the Daily sacrifice seen in Daniel's 70 weeks. This is the VISION of the EVENING and MORNING seen in Daniel, "It shall be for MANY DAYS." He brings down the pride as He takes the sin of the world.

    The Similitude is this, the day of the cross as 2,000 years, and 2,000 from 29 ad to 2029 ad, NOW WATCH WHAT HAPPENS!

    (EZEKIEL 47:8) Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed. (KJV)
    The sea is the people as waters, ISRAEL will awaken and see Jesus is the Messiah. No physical coming, this is seeing Jesus in Scripture as the Christ.

    (EZEKIEL 47:9) And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh. (KJV)

    The Rivers is seeing the Gospel, The great multitude of fish is the Fishers of men will have converts by the nets full.

    (EZEKIEL 47:10) And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many. (KJV)
    Fishers of men. Prepare yourselves.

    (EZEKIEL 47:11) But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt. (KJV)
    There will be a few holdouts so we do not put up our Bibles. Salt is a sacrifice. Israel is LOT'S wife. Looked back to God's law not left with Jesus. Israel made a Sacrifice to testify that the Old Testament Scripture is intact and not changed to fit Jesus.

    Two different groups of people seen in Revelation, they appear the same, they are not. Both keeping the commandments of God.

    (REVELATION 12:17) And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. (KJV)
    This is Israel, the Testimony of Jesus is the Jewish Holy Scripture, what Christians call the Old Testament. The Jewish People have the TESTIMONY of Jesus.

    (REVELATION 14:12) Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. (KJV)
    This is Christians with the FAITH of Jesus.

    Now this is getting a bit long, How about a drink out of the CUP?

    There is a Sea in Solomon's Temple. The Brim is like unto a CUP.
    (MATTHEW 26:39) And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt. (KJV)

    The Cup normally holds 2,000 baths (Jewish measurement) of Water. The Jewish nation get 2,000 years of sleep from 29 ad to 2029 ad. This is the Cup poured unto THEM.

    For a Jew (Even Jesus) to make a marriage (Believers seen as a marriage) to a Non-Jew was whoredom. Jesus loves everyone, like the parable of the Barns, not just save the Lost sheep of the house of Israel, but all mankind. And when He decides to build a bigger barn. "Thou fool, Today Thy Soul is required of Thee." Jesus took sin, Proverbs say a rod is made for a fool's back, Jesus was beaten with a rod for us. Foolish to many people. Be beaten for another, Out of love, Jesus became a fool for us.

    (REVELATION 18:6) Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. (KJV)

    The Jewish nation get 2,000 baths, Jesus gets 4,000. The Cup only has a capasity of three thousand. "MY CUP RUNNETH OVER." 1,000 baths spill over the cup's side, that covers the 1,000 years as yesterday when it is past in Psalms 90:4. The 1,000 when David's child which died 7 days old was with God before He was REBORN at Bethlehem, the Firstbegotten of the
    Dead (Rev 1:5)

    1,000 are used up as a watch in the Night, Which leaves 2,000 from the cross in 29 ad to 2029 ad, Jesus is also SEALED from seeing.

    (JOHN 6:27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. (KJV)

    The Lion prevails to Lossen the SEALS, or to see what is written.

    Now the sea in Solomon's temple has 1,000 run over the side for 1004 bc to 4 bc, 1,000 as a watch in the night as the day of the cross being the 1,000 year reign of Christ, and 2,000 from the cross is 29 ad to 2029 ad when the Nation of Israel will see that Jesus is the Christ.

    Isaiah 29:10 sealed the Prophets, Rulers, and Seers, Jesus is as such also.

    Now, from 4 bc to the cross is 29 ad is not covered by Baths of water. The Cup is a HANDBREADTH THICK.

    (2CHRONICLES 4:5) And the thickness of it was an handbreadth, and the brim of it like the work of the brim of a cup, with flowers of lilies; and it received and held three thousand baths. (KJV)

    (PSALMS 39:5) Behold, thou hast made my days as an handbreadth; and mine age is as nothing before thee: verily every man at his best state is altogether vanity. Selah. (KJV)

    His age or the 33 years is as the Handbreadth of the cup.

    Time, Times and the Dividing of time, or half a time. Seen in Daniel and in Revelation.

    Time=Creation story in 3975 bc to the Baptism in 25 ad. "At the Fulness of time, God sent forth His Son, made of a woman, Time is 4,000 years.

    Times is the day of the cross seen as 2,000 years in Psalms 90:4 and Ecc 6:6.

    Dividing or half a time is the cross in 29 ad to 2029 ad, then the Woman (Israel) will see the FACE of the SERPENT. NOW, WHO can not Israel see? Not in the Old Testament, Not the Day of the Cross, and not even now, but in 2029 ad Israel will see.

    Jesus likened Himself to a Serpent on a Pole. The Holy Spirit comes down as Cloven tongues (Serpent's have cloven tongues) at Pentecost. God says He makes the Blind and dumb in Exodus 4:11. Allows Himself to be commanded, and Jesus does and the Blind man sees.

    (EXODUS 4:11) And the Lord said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the Lord? (KJV)
    (ISAIAH 45:11) Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and his
    Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. (KJV)
    (MATTHEW 12:22) Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. (KJV)

    Notice the HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL. And HIS MAKER. Jesus is the Son of David, a created being. Perfect in the Day that Thou was created, Till iniquity (Placed upon Jesus by Isaiah 53:6) was found in Thee.

    (JOB 37:2) Hear attentively the noise of his voice, and the sound that goeth out of his mouth. (KJV)

    Are we listening CLOSE?
    (ISAIAH 7:18) And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall hiss for the fly that is in the uttermost part of the rivers of Egypt, and for the bee that is in the land of Assyria. (KJV)

    What makes a Hissing sound? Does a Serpent?

    (PSALMS 35:15) But in mine adversity they rejoiced, and gathered themselves together: yea, the abjects gathered themselves together against me, and I knew it not; they did tear me, and ceased not: (KJV)

    Jesus is the Adversary the Day of the Cross.

    (HOSEA 13:8) I will meet them as a bear that is bereaved of her whelps, and will rend the caul of their heart, and there will I devour them like a lion: the wild beast shall tear them. (KJV)

    Jesus is the Adversary the day of the Cross devouring like a lion into the body of Christ as He consumes not only the lost sheep of the house of Israel but even the heathen given Jesus in Psalms 2:8, Body of Christ seen born the day of the cross in 2:6/7

    (PSALMS 22:1) My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? (KJV)

    Your Adversary as a ROARING Lion, seeking whom He may devour. All being consumed in The Body of Christ. SEEK My Name, SEEK My FACE.

    Jesus is the Word of God.
    Satan desires to sift Peter as wheat. Let's see what God's word says.
    (AMOS 9:9) For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth. (KJV)

    Satan moved God against Job without a cause. Let's see what God's word says.
    (JEREMIAH 17:10) I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings. (KJV)

    I guess you get tested, Cause or not Job, God's word says He tries us all.

    Satan took all Job had. Let's see what Job had to say about that.
    (JOB 1:21) And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord. (KJV)
    (JOB 1:22) In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly. (KJV)

    The Lord did it.

    God send a lying spirit in 1-Kings 22:21/24. He wants King Ahab to go up and die in Battle, Similitude for Jesus to willingly die at Calvary to Fulfill all the Prophecies, which go from a similitude of lies to TRUTH. Father of Lies is the Father of the prophecies.

    Murderer from the Beginning, Isaiah 46:10 "declaring the end from the beginning". When Jesus said "It is finished.", The Beginning started, Jesus died with future sins, past and present ones ended with His stripes we are healed. He is a Murderer from the Beginning, God also offered His Son a living sacrifice, Murder under the law. When John 8:44 was spoken, the truth was not in Him YET. All was made truth the day of the cross, that is why the Spirit of truth could not come till Jesus went to the Cross.

    (JOHN 15:26) But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: (KJV)
    (JOHN 16:7) Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. (KJV)

    Truth is not what we want, it is what is established by God. And all is established as Truth the day of the cross.

    Ken (My keyboard runneth over)

    [ April 11, 2002, 06:09 PM: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]
     
  2. Star

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    Your keyboard runneth over and reaches even me [​IMG] Beyond that I'm speechless and blessed in the knowledge of Christ through you. Where did you get this learning? Never mind stupid question lol!

    Your sister in Christ Kim

    No one ever shares with the assurance, confidence and backing of Gods word as you have. Its refreshing.
     
  3. post-it

    post-it
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    Ken Burton (one between screen name)

    Ken, you have me looking for Similitude’s everywhere now.

    I notice that at the end of your screen name (one between screen name). I assume the word "one" is some type of reference to you. I remember another title starting with "one"..."One flew over the cuckoo's nest." There are 6 words in the title, which matches the 6 letters in your last name. Ken is made up of 3 letters, which is the first half of 6. Half is often used in the term "half nuts".

    I happen to love nuts, especially the peanut which also has 6 letters. Often peanuts come numbered in a shell at 2 or 3. 3 is again found in your name KEN. 2 times 3 equals 6. Star will really be amazed to find out how much verification there is that you could have attended the movie "One flew over the cuckoo's nest" while eating peanuts, or that you flew over the same nest and could be nuts. BTW, the word "nut" has 3 letters in it also. Scary stuff. :D
     
  4. post-it

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    Oh my gosh, I just looked at the word count of that last post I made about Ken. It contained 182 words. If you add up each of those numbers it equals 11 which when added together again equals 2. 2 is the same and the half nuts simlitude. Counting all letters and spaces it contained 762 characters. Add up this up and you have 15, add the 1 and 5 and you have 6 again. 6 is found in Burton. This is getting to be too much, I must grab reality somehow. HELPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP!!!!! :rolleyes:
     
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    Now post it,

    That was a beautiful demonstration of Gods wisdom and power and refute with mans "jesting" why not try using Gods words, Ken apparently believes in them and it makes more sense in Christ then half the stuff out on the christian market bringing in big bucks, yet none of them agree with each other. Is this how your debates are considered won? To what avail if Christ is being testified to? If every jot and tittle be fulfilled in Christ why is seeing that wrong? In your eyes why does God use numbers? He seems to attach numbers everywhere. Why do you think Wisdom hewn its seven pillars when Wisdom is the Cross of Christ?

    I think alot of study and alot of dedication went into every single line looking for Jesus, and that is laughed at? Yet not one refute was offered on the many verses shared. I thought better of you then that to go the extra mile with an athiest but scoff at a "brother".

    In Him Kim :(
     
  6. post-it

    post-it
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    Now Star,

    You know that the atheist is our brother too. If I hold them accountable in debate (or just opinion) for their mistaken beliefs, shouldn't I hold a Christian accountable for his? May I not question anyone's belief, if they post an assertion in this area, I have that right here.

    Scripture tells us to test and question. My conclusion were the prior postings using the same Logic as Ken used. If you found it silly, you should have also found Ken's statements equally as silly.

    But what if I was being serious? How did you not know I was stating something I truly believed, as Ken has done? If so, you are as guilty as I, had I been serious. Whoops!
     
  7. Don

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    As my eighth grade English teacher used to tell me: "Uh, WRONG."

    This is a perfect example of having a conclusion and searching for scriptures that support that conclusion--without realizing that the context of the verses actually contradict that conclusion.

    Ken's statement: That Satan turned God from Job. The reality?

    Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
    10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
    11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
    12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

    And in Job 2:4 And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.
    5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.
    6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

    So why did Job say, "The Lord gives, and the Lord takes away?" Because, as anyone who actually has read Job with understanding knows, God never told Job what was going on. Job was never made privy to Satan's part in these circumstances.

    Frankly, Ken has presented a conundrum: We could sit and pick apart his statements, but who has the time to sit on the internet and do that?

    I don't. I only have time to recognize tidbits here and there, and point them out.

    Perhaps if we got bite-size chunks, instead of trying to swallow the whole steak at once....
     
  8. post-it

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    A Christian doesn't have to refute any of his claims, he has done the deed against himself already.

    People (false prophets) have been predicting dates of this or that since Christ died, they have all been wrong. Why should one believe Ken’s 2029 date anymore than Hal Lindsey's 1976, then 1978, then 1982... ending with Jan 1 2000, then whatever next date he has found using numbers and secret meanings in the Bible or the other 10,000 dates throughout time?

    Let's test what he claims with instructions from the Bible.

    Words from Christ tells us that no man knows the day or time. NO MAN! If Ken is a man, he is wrong, otherwise he would know the true time and he could not be a man, thus he would be God or some other spiritual entity. If Ken is right, or if Hal Lindsey was right, Logic dictates they cannot be men, they must be an angel, devil, or part of the Godhead. Which would you guess they are?

    My guess is that they are men, and they don't have a clue as to what they are saying.
     
  9. Star

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    Post it,

    The "Word of God" is used to "correct and refute and instruct" not our "opinions" this is what I'm saying. You may argue with an "athiest" not using the word of God if you like since they do not believe in Gods record concerning Christ.

    When it comes to a brother in the Lord however this is the wrong way to approach refute "poking fun" without showing the "error" in accordance with the word of truth.

    Just because someone says, "thats foolishness" does not make it so an intelligent debate according to the word of God taking in the full councel of God would prove enlightening. The more I read what Ken writes and "search it out" (being careful "how" I hear the more is measured to me).

    Go look in "theology" on other boards with pastors and teachers etc. questioning the understanding of everything they have been taught, they "don't know" its obvious people can't make sense out of these things.

    If the "anti Christ" is coming (who was already in the world when John wrote) who is suppose to "take away" or stop sacrifices as others claim what is "evil" about that? Are we to "erect" a system of sacrifices that have been "done away with" in Christ? If Jesus said you neither worship on this mountain or in Jersusalem why do teachers teach that at that time we will? How do they construct the thousand years, because the thousand years were AS YESTERDAY when they have PAST, where do THEY put this? If one would know the scriptures as Jesus said to those who used them did not know the scriptures or the "power of God" which is the Cross of Christ. I consider Christ the "Center point", the "Wisdom of God" the "Power of God" knowing that The Spirit of Prophesy IS the Testimony of Christ and that ALL THINGS are SUMMED UP IN HIM... Just a few? The reality is that they speak of Christ. The "Cup" makes perfect sense, God "pours" from the Cup. Why does God mention by "Jewish measurements" how many baths it holds? Is it "insignificant"? Does it NOT matter?

    Why does the Holy Spirit come in "cloven tongues" does not that cause you to be curious? Why Did God decieved Jeremiah? Why does He send "lying Spirits" when no lie comes from the Truth and why does Jesus call Himself the Truth unless He is the Truth of ALL that is written? Why does God provoke David to "number Isreal and Satan Does it? If Satan is disobedient to God why does He do his will? Why is Lucifer seen as PERFECT in all His ways known as the one WHO COVERS UNTIL SIN WAS FOUND IN HIM? Jesus was perfect and the one God uses to "Cover us" through His blood and He BECAME SIN. Why is Leviathan seen "as meat" in Job and Christ says, I have "meat to eat" you know not of.

    Who said, "Ah Lord you have decieved these people saying you shall have peace when there is a Sword at their throats"? Why not are we to make a slanderous accusation against Satan and we are to agree with our adversary? Why is Satan obeying Christ in Judas in whom God is Speaking TO in Zechariah concerning the 30 shekles of silver, saying, "what thou art about to do, do quickly"? Why does God say He makes the blind etc and yet these are "attributed" to Satan in the gospels.

    Why does it say if a Kingdom is divided against itself it cannot stand and yet Christ came and brought a Sword and spoke about division and added that the things concerning "me" have an END. He not the anti Christ brought an end to sacrifices and offerings because thats not what God desired, "but a body thou has prepared" to worship Him in Spirit and in Truth for such the Father seeks.

    The Serpent enticed Eve to the Tree I consider the Law (that is disputable) But the preist who admistered the water with the curses to the unfaithful wife shows the same thing, God gave the Law to Moses to give to Isreal they bound themselves to a "curse" it says (Neh) Who gave that Law? Who CAUSED THEM TO DRINK? Who DECIEVED? and to what purpose? These make PERFECT SENSE.

    Who exhalted Himself over that which is CALLED (hear that?) CALLED GOD NOT WHAT TRULY IS GOD. Christ showed them the Father through Him yet Isreal did not recognize Him.

    In the place (what place?) where it was said, "you are NOT MY CHILDREN" THERE YOU SHALL BE CALLED THE SONS OF GOD.

    Where was this place? Lets look to Jesus Christ thats where everything finds its fulfillment.

    YE ARE OF YOUR FATHER THE DEVIL HE IS A LIAR AND THE FATHER OF THEM.

    All prophesies until they pas are considered as "lies" until they are FULFILLED that was Gods law concerning the prophets who spoke in His name and what they spoke (if they had NOT come to pass) were to be considered as such (Gods words NOT mine) God was the one who put a "lying spirit" in the mouths of the prophets.

    Wheres our begining?

    God declares the END (sacrifices and offerings) FROM THE BEGINING. The Cross is the Begining!

    In The Begining (The Cross) was The Word (Christ) and the Word (Christ) was with God and the Word (Christ) WAS GOD. Christ was and is The Truth of ALL that was written and He fulfilled every word declaring, "It is finished"

    Who is the Murderer from the "Begining"? God delivered up His own Son, and His Sword in Zech is seen raised against HIS SHEPHERD. He struck His Shepherd with with the Sword. Gods words coming to pass and made complete in Christ (The Truth) of them.

    Look at Gods law concerning striking someone and look at what is said, if that person was "unharmed" or "gets up" after a certain time what that means.

    I see this as Jesus Christ completely is is supported by the law, by the testimony, by the work of Christ and that which is accomplished on the cross, without a doubt.

    Testing Ken's words according to scripture has turned to bless me in Christ and bring a greater faith in Him through the knowledge of Christ and Gods great works in them.

    I am blessed by them, you may not be but refute using Gods words on a certain point and lets reason together concerning these things.

    In Him Kim
     
  10. Star

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    Don,

    You said, So why did Job say, "The Lord gives, and the Lord takes away?" Because, as anyone who actually has read Job with understanding knows, God never told Job what was going on. Job was never made privy to Satan's part in these circumstances.

    You have just "proven Kens point" He sees Job as a similitude of Christ (though he has not shared that yet).

    God never said Job was wrong for attributing that which was taken away (seen as done through Satan) and attributing it to "God Himself". The statement was not even corrected or revealed or refuted by God speaking to Him out of the storm. Jobs freinds (three not four) had not spoken what was right as Job did. Job was blameless and upright, none as righteous as Him" Job is a picture of Christ. Where were YOU when I laid the foundation of the earth? SURELY YOU WERE THERE! There are tons of treasures in Job concerning Christ.

    You said, Frankly, Ken has presented a conundrum: We could sit and pick apart his statements, but who has the time to sit on the internet and do that?

    But it seems as if you had the time to chase me around trying to prove me wrong and a forum such as this we look into Gods word, sharing, refuting, correcting, you have no time for that? Isn't that what we are to do? That position is one of default, deep conviction fights indifference seldom does (as a good freind once told me).

    In Him Kim

    [ April 07, 2002, 02:14 PM: Message edited by: Star ]
     
  11. Don

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    First off, Star, I did not prove Ken's point. I refuted something Ken said: That Satan moved God against Job for no reason. Thus, Ken's initial premise is flawed.

    Second, YOU made a mistake as well: "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?" does NOT attribute a likeness of Job to Christ.

    Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

    You've made a statement ("SURELY YOU WERE THERE") that...well, to paraphrase your own words...wasn't there.

    Further, your statement: "Look at Gods law concerning striking someone and look at what is said, if that person was "unharmed" or "gets up" after a certain time what that means."

    Exodus 21:18 And if men strive together, and one smite another with a stone, or with his fist, and he die not, but keepeth his bed:
    19 If he rise again, and walk abroad upon his staff, then shall he that smote him be quit: only he shall pay for the loss of his time, and shall cause him to be thoroughly healed.

    Your point was...what? That Jesus would be thoroughly healed? I agree; however, the first half of that is the striker (in your similitude, God) would pay the strikee (in your similitude, Jesus) for the loss of his time.

    What is it you're proposing that God paid Jesus for His loss of time?
     
  12. LadyEagle

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    post-it...I can't stop laughing, ROFL! :D This is more than I can bear!!!! I have to go rest now. :D :D [​IMG] ;)
     
  13. Don

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    Kim, you edited your post while I was responding. Sorry I didn't address your last statements.

    Here's the deal: Read the last line of what I wrote about Ken's post (about bite-size chunks versus swallowing the steak whole) and give it some thought....

    "Deep conviction fights; indifference seldom does?"

    If I have a deep conviction over this, it's a conviction to see that God's Word is not improperly represented.

    Am I chasing you all over this board? Possibly; you're the main one lately that seems to be presenting a view that I've shown several times to be based on improperly used scripture.
     
  14. ken1burton

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    Looks like there is a fire in the basement. Great. God's word is like as a fire.

    Satan moved God against Job without a Cause. Try this paraphrase: God's Word moved God against Job without a cause because God said He tries the hearts and reigns of men, and God does that which He says.

    God's word says He will sift Peter as corn (a grain of wheat is a corn of wheat) in Amos 9:9. Jesus put it "Satan desires to sift you as wheat, and that is exactly what God's word will do the day of the cross.

    "If you understand Job", Great, Then as you understand Job you should have no problem at all seeing it is Jesus the day of the cross, The 7 sons is the day as 7 time periods, the 3 Daughters is the day as 3 pictures. The Wind comes out of the Wilderness, (Whose house have I made a wilderness, which is the house built the day of the cross as 7 time periods.)

    The wind smites the 4 corners of the house, or the first picture as 4 6-hour periods.

    (JOB 38:4) Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. (KJV)

    This is for Jesus, He is hanging on a cross just outside Jerusalem. The Lamb is slain from the Foundation of the World. (Rev 13:8)

    (JOB 38:9) When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it, (KJV)
    This is Jesus with the sin of the World.

    (ISAIAH 44:22) I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee. (KJV)

    (JOB 38:10) And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors, (KJV)
    "decree place" is the day of the cross the Body of Christ is DECREED.

    (PSALMS 2:6) Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. (KJV)
    (PSALMS 2:7) I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my son; this day have I begotten thee. (KJV)

    (JOB 38:17) Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death? (KJV)
    Jesus dies the day of the cross. And this is the day.

    (JOB 38:21) Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great? (KJV)
    The Body of Christ born the day of the cross, and this is the day.

    "If you understand Job", You are not suppost to understand Job as much as have a personal relationship with Him, He is better know as Jesus Christ.

    Not a peanut, a Coconut, One as in God and Christ. With milk, and plenty of meat inside. And a very hard nut to crack.

    (SOLOMON 6:11) I went down into the garden of nuts to see the fruits of the valley, and to see whether the vine flourished and the pomegranates budded. (KJV)

    Someone did not get the Point, I am not a man, I moved to Angel status by adding the Cubit. and a angel on earth was not listed as not knowing the day or the hour. God does NOTHING without showing it first.

    Many things in Scripture shows "Which no man can find out", Add the Cubit, reach angel status, Then Find "OUT", After you can go to "Beyond finding OUT."

    God plays word games. This is the best one I have seen:

    (ISAIAH 3:17) Therefore the Lord will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the Lord will discover their secret parts. (KJV)

    Because the Body of Christ is seen born the day of the cross, and we are in this newborn body, I guess we needed a Cradle cap.

    Ken.
     
  15. Star

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    Don,

    Your absolutely right it was “me” saying “Surely YOU were THERE as I see Job as speaking of Christ.. So “nix” that for right now out of a moment of inspiration. Because I’m the one who sees Job as Christ bearing the “sins of the world” with that which was inflicted on Him such as the “Sores” seen on Him. I see Him as Christ because there is NONE RIGHTEOUS NO NOT ONE and Job has to be speaking of Christ.

    About the smiting, Christ arose. Theres a lot of smiting going on here. Theres the Sword raised to smite the Shepherd God moving against His Son to fulfill His word and establish His Word as Truth in the beginging I see as The Cross (thanks to Ken) The sword promised to “Mary” that would pierce her soul so that the THOUGHTS OF MANY would be revealed, therefore I see Mary as a similitude to the body of Christ where this finds its fulfillment (Woman under the law). Wages of Sin is “death” He was PAID “THOSE WAGES”, He also receives the Nations as His inheritance. Loss of time is not what is meant to me in the law. He was “cut off” as in Daniel but not for himself as Christ said, “It is for YOUR GOOD that I go away unless He went away the Comforter would not come. He had but a short time.

    As For Christ striking, When He stated, "No one comes to the Father but by me" He struck Isreal blind at the "door" Christ is that Door. What He opens no man can shut and what He shuts no man can open. "LOOK your house is left to you desolate you will not see me again until you say blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord".

    As for you thinking I’m offended (I apologize for that impression given) when I said, “You following me around to refute”, that’s not what I meant, I meant you had the time to pursue that WITH ME I’m asking you why now, do you not have the time to look at this, is what I meant. Besides you seem to think you showed me my “error” but I don’t remember you doing that.

    Numbers 35:16 And if he smite him with an instrument of iron, so that he die, he [is] a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death.

    Who has a Rod of Iron? Who strikes with one? Who smotes? Who heals?

    Numbers 35:17 And if he smite him with throwing a stone, wherewith he may die, and he die, he [is] a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death.

    Who is the "Stone"?, Who did David throw that Stone at and where did it hit him? What does THAT mean to you? Why was Christ crucified in the "place of the skull"? (Galgotha)

    Who delivered Christ up to the Cross? Who had the Sword in His hand in Zech? Whose Sword is bathed in blood and whose blood is it? Why is “Blood seen as something forbidden to the Jewish nation and why did God chose that which was an “offense” to them in the law which Christ said, “eat my flesh drink my blood” when they were forbidden to do so?

    The Wolf... John 10:12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. (Gen 11:9) The Lord (Gen 49:7) The Lord Duet 4:27) The Lord (duet 4:27) The Lord Duet 28:64) The Lord , should I go on?

    Who smote the Shepherd in Zech? SCATTERING THE SHEEP??? Who LEAVES THE NINETY AND NINE FOR THE ONE?

    1Kings 14:15)The Lord SMITES Isreal, and scatters them, smites smites smites He does!

    Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

    THESE ARE ALL GOD He is the Wolf, the Lamb, The Kid, the Leopard etc.

    Hosea 13:7 Therefore I WILL BE UNTO THEM AS A LION: as a LEOPARD by the way will I observe [them]: (Gods the Lion? Tribe of Judah? also as a LEOPARD by the way observing what?)

    Jerm 5:6 Wherefore a LION out of the forest SHALL SLAY THEM, [and] a WOLF of the EVENINGS shall spoil them, a LEOPARD shall watch over their cities (whose the leopard? Who watches over the cities?): every one that goeth out thence shall be torn in pieces: because their transgressions are many, [and] their backslidings are increased.

    A bear?
    Lam 3:10 He [was] unto me [as] a BEAR lying in wait, [and as] a LION in secret places.

    Hosea 13:8 I WILL MEET THEM AS A BEAR [that is] bereaved [of her whelps], and will REND the caul of THEIR HEART, and there will I DEVOUR THEM LIKE A LION: the WILD BEAST shall tear them.

    Daniel 7:5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and [it had] three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.

    Isaiah 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust [shall be] the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

    The DUST BE THE SERPENTS MEAT???? You got to be kidding REALLY??? Thats interesting!

    This is all too interesting, why does no one adress these things? The Lord Hissing,Holy Spirit "cloven tongues" only a Serpent has Cloven togues. The Authority of God (Christ) cast down BECOMES A SERPENT Jesus likens Himself as a Serpent on a pole. The Rod cast down CONSUMES all the other serpents, as all "lies" (seen put in the mouths of the prophets by God himself)

    Com on, its in His word He's the one likening Himself to these things, there are hints to these very things throughout. Ken is right, in Rev the woman is hid from the face of the Serpent, but who is she REALLY HID FROM SEEING??? Who decieves? God does, he did Jeremiah and elsewhere (don't have the verse handy) like I shared, "ah Lord you have decieved this people saying you will have peace while a Sword is at their throat.

    Theres way too much to consider.

    In Him Kim
     
  16. Don

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    Ya know, there's nothing worse than someone who is shown unequivocably that they're incorrect, but they insist on holding onto their statement anyway.

    THAT, my friends, borders on a perversion of God's Word.

    Ken, you're denying God's own words (Job 1:12, Job 2:6, where it specifically says that God put Job in Satan's hand. Also, the context of the passages is that it was NOT done without reason; God used the situation to prove His glory, and His magnificence, because Job refused curse God). You've taken another verse, used in a completely different context, and practically made a theology out of it.

    Sorry, dude, but you're wrong.

    By denying God's own words, you're denying the Bible. That's intolerable.

    Unless, of course, you're stating that you don't believe every word is inspired by God. In which case, this conversation is over.
     
  17. Star

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    Don,

    I'll let Ken answer that Question but if we are seeing Job as a similitude of Christ where does Christ curse God? NEVER! Now when Satan entered Judas who was in Satans hands? CHRIST!!! (If seen as Job) Satan against Christ God against Christ NOT done WITHOUT REASON but MOVED AGAINST CHRIST WITHOUT CAUSE. He was BLAMELESS and RIGHTEOUS (As Christ is) . Your mixing it up.

    Gods Glory Wisdom and Power are seen in the similitude of Job speaking of Christ. Christ was given into their hands (The Jewish nations hands led by Judas, remember- entered by Satan) They found not fault in Christ as there was not fault with Job. The "reason" God did this was to display His power and wisdom found in the weakness of God (The Cross) more powerful then mans strength.

    How is there a contradiction? your seeing one that isn't there, no ones denying Gods words or the verse it stands as True. His word is true and made complete in Christ. remember were summing these things up in Christ there are many angels in the fulfillment as shown with the Sword. You could rather say (instead of accuse) why then does this next verse say "this"? Then lets go from there. No need to throw in a "verse" and declare it as something anyones denying without bringing it up. Not everything is adressed. When Ken writes too much he gets nailed and writes too little he gets nailed,lets be reasonable, looking line upon line precept upon precept. I'm up for it, I'm still understanding this and held the same reaction as you did to it, but something made me stop and look, then something made me look at some of my faulty concepts and rebuild on Christ again, after all He is the desire of my heart and I want understanding concerning Him.

    In Him Kim

    [ April 07, 2002, 10:52 PM: Message edited by: Star ]
     
  18. Don

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    Star, you're so desperate to see your viewpoint as correct that you also are denying scripture.

    Where in Job does it say that God was against Job? The verses I provided showed the fact that Satan told God, "Turn your hand against Job," and God didn't do that. God replied, "Job is in your hand, only don't take his life."

    That last one alone proves to be a valid refutation of the similitude you and Ken are presenting. For Judas delivered Christ to be sacrificed, and Christ gave His life. God explicitly did not move His hand against Job, and ordered Satan not to take Job's life.

    I understand completely the similitude you and Ken are trying to present, but these are the points where the similitude fails.

    As I said to Ken, you're trying so hard to hold onto your conclusion that you're starting to deny scripture in order to keep that conclusion.

    I know how this goes, for I've been in that position myself--and am not quite stupid enough to believe that I won't be again.

    Anyway, that's my take on the situation with Job. Y'all do with it what you will; you have to make up your own minds, and let God guide you, not me. I'll drop the matter now and leave you alone.

    Pray about it, and seek God's guidance as to the truth of the matter.

    [ April 08, 2002, 07:49 AM: Message edited by: Don ]
     
  19. Star

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    Don,

    Where in Job does it say that God was against Job? The verses I provided showed the fact that Satan told God, "Turn your hand against Job," and God didn't do that. God replied, "Job is in your hand, only don't take his life."

    Zech 13:7 Awake, O Sword, against my shepherd, and against the man [that is] my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

    I know you have ended the conversation but I want to adress this anyway. Job is saying it was "God" who gives and takes away. NOW Satan is seen doing just that as Job is in His hands. Yet in Job saying, "its the Lord who gave and taketh away" God is saying (despite his not knowing that its Satan doing this) that Job did NOT charge God with wrong doing even if he was attributing the "taking away" TO God. God never even corrected Him. Below its GOD'S SWORD AGAINST THE SHEPHERD with no question, I'm not looking at just "one singled out picture" because the sum of thy word is Truth.

    Where I am seeing God moving against Christ is in Zech, where God says, "Awake O Sword AGAINST My Shepherd. Jesus is "The Word", "The Truth" "The Life". God is moving against Christ (Blameless, and Righteous) by allowing them to bear Him up (The Ark) in their hands (peoples are waters) led by Judas (in whom Satan entered). Gods words are coming to pass IN CHRIST, Manifesting themselves in Christ as the Truth of all the was written.

    If you look in Zech where God is speaking to Judas about throwing the silver to the potters feild (I don't have the verse handy) WHO IS IN JUDAS? Satan. Jesus said to Satan, "What thou art about to do do quickly". Christ knew the things written down were against Him, and that all needed to be fulfilled being the Lamb of God who taketh away the sins of the world. He was perfect, the perfect sacrifice. Jesus said, "What shall I say, Father save me from this hour"? For this purpose He came. God delivered Him up.

    Job 16:11 God hath delivered me to the ungodly, and turned me over into the hands of the wicked. This is speaking of Christ look...

    Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the ""determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God""", ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

    They meant it for evil but God meant it for good for the Cross is the wisdom and power of God. This was predetermined by the foreknowledge of God. God so loved the World that HE GAVE His only begotten Son...

    The levites according to the law were to bare up the Ark , they did exactly what God knew they would under the law. God shows His power and wisdom in all of this. They did exactly what He knew they would do that He wrote it down before it ever happened.

    In Him Kim
     
  20. Star

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    Heres just a few thoughts,

    Mark 9:12 And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought.

    Job 13:26 For THOU writest bitter things AGAINST ME, and makest me to possess the iniquities of my youth.

    Christ BECOMING SIN, He bears upon Him the Sins of the World.

    Mark 14:27 And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this NIGHT: for it is written, I will SMITE the SHEPHERD, and the sheep shall be scattered. (In Zech in above post) God then turns His Sword AGAINST THE LITTLE ONES. A lamb to the slaughter and as Paul said sheep to the slaughter.

    John 15:25 But [this cometh to pass], that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

    Luke 18:31 Then he took [unto him] the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

    Luke 22:37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an END.

    The Final Sin offering, perfect sacrifice, Lamb of God, Putting an end to sacrifices and offerings and bringing in everlasting Righteous In Christ, who leaves off His Righteousness in the Earth.

    In Him Kim
     

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