Obama's Fallacious Moral Reasoning on Health Care Reform

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Revmitchell, Jul 26, 2009.

  1. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
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    President Obama doesn't seem to be aware of any conditions or circumstances that may alter our "moral imperative" to pass his bill and to pass it right now.


    We should be aware of many.


    1) President Obama's argument that our choice is between a) his bill right now and b) no reform for another forty years is fallacious.

    2) His refusal to answer basic questions about how we are going to pay for his bill (refusing to take off the table the massive surtax option while also refusing to say he plans on using it if he can) is not fair.

    3) Independent budgetary analysts disagree with the President about what this reform bill will do to minimize overall government health expenditures (the president says we "can't afford" not to pass his bill) and about the impact of the 1 trillion dollar cost on other parts of our economy.

    4) Under the proposed legislation individuals will be required to have health care coverage that meets minimum benefits standards. These standards will be established by the Obama administration. There is very good reason to believe these minimum benefits that health insurance companies must provide will include abortion on demand. Obama has said reproductive care is essential care, basic care" and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has added, reproductive health includes access to abortion. Congressman Joe Pitts (PA) recently warned in a written statement that any individual who does not have a plan that meets the minimum benefit standards will be forced to pay a 2.5 percent tax penalty. And any employer who does not provide coverage that meets these standards will pay up to an 8 percent tax penalty,"

    5) This week the president himself admitted he cannot guarantee tax money will not be used for abortions under his plan. Why can't he guarantee that? Because he wants it in his plan and will mandate it if he can.

    6) Euthanasia is not explicitly excluded from the category of basic health care either. If it is not excluded, eventually it will be demanded, and we will pay for it.
    For President Obama to continue to use moral arguments to demand immediate passage of his bill, without also putting to rest the conditions and circumstances I outline above, is ethically reprehensible and politically unacceptable.

    God bless, Father Jonathan


    More Here
     
  2. Carico

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    Obama is simply a liar, plain and simply. But God has him in power to help usher in the last days. So we need to pray for him. :eek:
     
  3. LeBuick

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    Though it is called his bill, most on the hill criticize him for not giving enough input. He gave the job to congress to craft legislation.

    The surtax proposal came from congress. Obama wants to even out the deductions of the middle class and the rich. If my dollar is worth 15% deduction, I don't see why their dollar should be worth 28% deduction. I believe what Obama is proposing is fair.

    They are not done crafting the bill. They went back into negotiations after the CBO said there was another $200 billion to be cut to make it deficit neutral. So as for your $1 Trillion number, they are within $200 Billion of being deficit neutral so the $1 Trillion you speak of is majority paid for (according to the CBO who you quoted).

    This is not true, this is why he keeps saying the plan will only cover 97% of the nation. We all know there are people who will opt not to get coverage and there is no individual mandate in the legislation. More GOP rhetoric.

    Abortions are legal. You can have it both ways. First the GOP says it is taboo to ration health care or for the government to come between the doctor and patient then the GOP demands it doesn't cover a legal procedure like abortion.

    Same response as above...

    God bless you too, Father Jonathan
     
  4. OldRegular

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    LeBuick

    How can one who professes to be a follower of Jesus Christ be so wrong on so many moral issues so often?
     
  5. windcatcher

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    Abortion may be considered a 'legal procedure' by todays law..... but seldom is it considered to be a 'medically necessary procedure'. As it is used by probably as high or higher than 99% of recipients.... it is NOT a medically necessary procedure.

    Hey...... I don't mind my tax dollars going for plastic surgery to repair disfigurement to disease or accident but to be paying for breast augmentation or nose jobs merely because people are dissatisfied with the one God gave them..... is not 'medically necessary'. Why not exclude all procedures which are not 'medically necessary' especially as we're concerned about cost containment and rationing is an option. Or do we just let little ole ladies die because they can't get a hip replacement (because they're too old to benefit more than a few years longer) while planned parenthood enlarges its minions from government dollars paying for unwanted pregnacy terminations?
     
  6. targus

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    15% - who are you trying to kid?

    To be in the 15% bracket you would have to have a job first.
     
  7. LeBuick

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    Are you questioning my walk with Christ OR?

    I profess Christ the same as you, with my mouth and believe in my heart.
     
  8. alatide

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    I have always supported praying for our political leaders but I don't claim to have a special revelation from God about Obama's role in bringing in the last days. Why do you think you have such information?
     
  9. pilgrim2009

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    Reprehensible Obama Care

    Reprehensible Obama Care



    Dear BB

    Federal FORCED Health Care Laws from which the lawmakers EXEMPT
    themselves, is SHAMEFUL. Any lawmaker making a law, Forcing a form
    of Health Care upon someone, which they themselves will not be Forced
    to endure, is reprehensible. It is so morally wrong that such a person who
    would vote YES to such a proposed law should immediately Go To JAIL
    without passing GO or collecting another $200. Such conduct is disgusting
    for anyone who wants to be called honorable.

    The lawmakers are frequently found making laws regarding FORCED
    Federal Social Security related laws from which they EXEMPT
    THEMSELVES. That is DISGUSTING, and morally untenable.

    Lawmakers voting in favor of laws they did NOT even read is dereliction of
    duty, and such should be removed from office for such irresponsibility.

    Does the Health Care Bill FORCE you to have health insurance? YES.
    Though you may find some statements in the bill to mislead someone to
    think otherwise, it is true that you will be FORCED to buy Federally approved
    health insurance. When you file a tax return and fail to attach proof of your
    qualifying health plan, the IRS, in coordination with the expanded federal
    office on electronic medical records and a new state bureaucracy called a
    Gateway, will find you, notify you of your default, and FINE YOU BIGTIME
    (sec. 59). That is a penalty of about $5000. According to the House Bill, when
    you file your taxes, if you can NOT PROVE to the IRS that you are in a
    QUALIFIED plan, you will be FINED thousands of dollars. The fine is as
    much as the average cost of a health plan for your family size, and then
    automatically you get enrolled in a randomly selected plan. You can read
    it for yourself in the House Bill, p. 167-168. You can read 1,017 pages of
    the House Bill here if you think this is some sort of a joke or distortion of
    the facts:

    http://www.defendyourhealthcare.us/images/BILLS-111hr3200IH.pdf

    Obama said on July 17, that "if you like your health plan, you can keep it."
    That is just another BIG LIE of the ILLEGAL president. The bills now before
    Congress would FORCE you to switch to a managed-care plan with limits
    on your access to specialists and tests. OF COURSE THE LAWMAKERS
    AND HIGH GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS EXEMPT THEMSELVES.

    One thing that everyone should make clear to their Representative and
    Senator is that - Whatever health insurance bill is passed in Congress
    MUST apply to members of Congress and other federal employees too.
    NO EXCEPTIONS. Otherwise KEEPA YOU HANDS OFF OF HEALTH
    CARE. Some of you, like me, could say I am with Jesus Christ MUTUAL
    LIFE, where the premium has already been paid, and the benefits are
    out of this world. I will NOT switch no matter what the Obama gog says.

    Obama's fix for Social Security related financial problems quite LITERALLY
    and simply could be stated - KILL those who have been forced to contribute
    to the Social Security schemes before they can get much chance to take
    anything out. Allow me to explain that rather outrageous, but sad truth.

    We should be thankful that most doctors take the Hippocratic Oath quite
    seriously, and believe it to be their moral DUTY to do everything for the
    patient regardless of the cost or effects on others. Doctors who do take
    their Hippocratic Oath seriously would be OUTRAGED IF THEY were to
    read the 1600 pages of the Proposed Health Care laws. It will now be
    Federal EUGENICS PROGRAMMED computers telling doctors what
    kind of treatment and care that they can or can NOT give to their patients.
    The Federal computer will say do NOT give much care to a grandmother
    with Parkinson's, counsel her on the choices of the ways to die. That is
    also what the Federal computer will say for the child with cerebral palsy.
    Obama care is Hitler's Heath Care on STEROIDS.

    The assault against seniors began with something that was slipped into
    the so-called stimulus package. That package included funding for so-called
    comparative effectiveness research, which means limiting care based on the
    patient's age. QALY's means Quality Adjusted Life Years. The QALY is the
    formula where the COST of Treatment is DIVIDED by the age of the patient.
    In England today, QALY's are used, and is the basis for which TREATMENT
    IS DENIED TO OLDER PEOPLE. You should see the Obama plan to kill the
    contributors to SS before they make many withdrawals. Older patients are
    takers rather than givers to the federal slave tax monster, and if the QALY
    does not get them this will.

    The House Bill denies access to treatment by specialists as you can read,
    if you like in pages 660-688, of the 1,017 page House Bill. Ask any doctor.
    Heart-disease patients treated by general practitioners instead of specialists,
    are often misdiagnosed and treated incorrectly. The statistics prove such
    patients are readmitted to the hospital more frequently, and die sooner.

    The House bill being pushed by the Obama Eugenicists will deny access
    to cures which the Federal Eugenics programmed computers say are too
    expensive. The Obama Eugenics Health will deny access to specialists.
    BUT - TA DAHHHHH - Obama's Eugenic Health plan REQUIRES that
    seniors are counseled on end-of-life options, including refusing nutrition
    where state law allows it. Yes. You can read about it on pages 425-446 of
    the House Bill. It would be good for some newsman to ask Obama what he
    thinks of the Oregon program of offering physician-assisted suicide instead
    of treatment.

    The Obama plan, just like the Hitler plan, is EUGENICS. Obama and Hitler
    are very likeminded in their belief that living longer burdens society. Medical
    data verifies this is NOT true. A patient who dies at 67 spends three times as
    much on health care at the end of life as a patient who lives to 90. If Obama
    and his antichrist fellow EUGENICS travelers think the best thing we can do
    is reduce the population of the world, why don't they show us the way of
    leadership by example, and GO FIRST.

    .

    Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem. Pray Psalm 83 every day. Only be
    very strong and of good courage. Stay IN the Word.
     
  10. rbell

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    Several sources have been quoted refuting much of your arguments. Your response? "Obama said, 'trust me,' so I do."

    Look, it's been plainly shown that this bill will destroy private healthcare. It won't outlaw it...but it will make it untenable. But hey, you trust Obama, what can I say?

    And of course, nationalized healthcare really stinks if you are an unwanted unborn baby...but what concern is that of yours? It's legal, so who cares if it happens? Never let the murder of children go to waste, when it can also give you a chance to slam Republicans.
     
  11. alatide

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    Since this is such a large bill, can you point out where lawmakers exempt themselves?
     
  12. rbell

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    You don't honestly think that our Congress will be a part of the plan they are tossing on us, do you?

    Come, now....
     
  13. alatide

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    In other words it's either not in there or you can't find it.
     
  14. targus

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    Page 114

    ‘‘(5) QUALIFIED INDIVIDUAL.—
    23 ‘‘(A) IN GENERAL.—The term ‘qualified
    24 individual’ means an individual who is— ...

    12 ‘‘(v) not eligible for coverage under— ...

    22 ‘‘(III) the Federal employees
    23 health benefits program under chapter
    24 89 of title 5, United States Code;

    I edited out the words that do not apply to make it easier to read.

    IOW - If you are eligible for coverage under the Federal employees health benefits you are not eligible to participate in the disaster waiting to devour all of us.
     
  15. targus

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    Bumped for alatide.

    Since he requested the information I assumed that he is sincerely interested in the truth.:rolleyes:
     
  16. targus

    targus
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    Bumped again for alatide.
     
  17. rbell

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    **crickets**
     
  18. LeBuick

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    No it hasn't but go ahead and think that way.

    I do... But the best way to solve the problem is to pass legislation to make it illegal.
     
  19. rbell

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    Ummm...yes, it has.

    The provision has been quoted on here several times...you can keep your coverage...but you can't ever change it. This effectively makes private insurance null and void.

    It's in the bill.


     
  20. targus

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    Yes, as you say the best way to end abortion is to pass legislation to make it illegal...

    But here we find you promoting and supporting a health care plan that would fund abortions on demand - all abortions.

    How sad to be you.
     

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