Obama's love for Islam - cont.

Discussion in 'Politics' started by kyredneck, Feb 25, 2015.

  1. kyredneck

    kyredneck
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    Iranian president says nuclear deal with the west is getting closer – 3 February 2015

    U.S., Iran positive after nuclear talks, say much left to do - Tue Feb 24, 2015

    I’ve come to appreciate your insights into ME affairs. This may seem far-fetched, but I’ve been mulling over the remote possibility that this whole rift between congress & Netanyahu and Obama administration over increased sanctions on Iran is calculated to make the hardliners in Iran amiable to concessions. Probably this is wishful thinking on my part because I desperately want to believe that there is still some semblance of under the table cooperation to avoid military action in Iran. I want desperately to believe that the Republicans are not so stupid as to sabotage the negotiations out of sheer disdain for our president.

    My nephew, an AF tactical air strike spotter, informed us at Thanksgiving dinner that “ISIS was getting ready to get their a$$ kicked”, and that he had received his orders to return to the ME in Feb.. He left for Kuwait a couple days ago. It seems the U.S. has been quietly staging there for some time now.

    I also want to believe that there has been ‘under the table’ cooperation between the two parties all along concerning this upcoming conflict.

    Again, I appreciate your insight. Seems to me it won’t be too hard to form a coalition with other Islamists in order to combat ISIS. I wouldn’t be surprised to find out Iran may secretly join in a coalition to defeat ISIS.
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=2195979#post2195979

    Good! Kudos to him for following their counsel.

    Excellent point. I believe you are right that he has intentionally tempered his speech so as to not to antagonize the Islamists any more than they already have for going on eight decades now.
     
    #1 kyredneck, Feb 25, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 25, 2015
  2. Use of Time

    Use of Time
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    Awesome! Thanks for reviving this man. I was kind of bummed that the door slammed on the discussion in the other thread as it was getting good. I was thinking about reviving this one myself so it is much appreciated.

    As for Iran, their government has a bigger fear of ISIS than we do and rightfully so. The ISIS situation could create strange bedfellows between Iran and the U.S. and it wouldn't surprise me in the least to learn that it is going to be used as an opportunity and bargaining chip with regards to the nuclear discussions which appear to be going better than expected. If successful it will be some brilliant timing.

    People need to understand that we live in a global community and there is a delicate balancing act required to keep it all from falling down so just remember that we have the luxury of saying broad sweeping things about Islam on the internet but world leaders have to be observant of what they say.
     
    #2 Use of Time, Feb 25, 2015
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  3. The American Dream

    The American Dream
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    Going to war or acts of war should be a last resort and followed by the Constitution. Congress declares war, and the President executes the war. Executing the war does not happen unless Congress declares. Once declared, we go to win, a swift and decisive victory, then a quick exit. We do not rebuild the country. We go home. Undeclared wars always end up either having to refight the same enemy, drawn out conflicts, no victory, and spending decades rebuilding the place.
     
  4. Use of Time

    Use of Time
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    If only W. would have listened to his father...and history.
     
  5. OldRegular

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    We rebuilt Germany and Japan and still have troops there!
     
  6. The American Dream

    The American Dream
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    You are so right. We should have left them in their rubble. They started it. My answers around war usually follow the Constitutional model. There is nothing there that says we pick up our mess.
     
  7. kyredneck

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    I don't see where the constitution forbids us from having compassion. We did a very good work in staying in Japan and Germany and putting those folks back on their feet.
     
  8. Use of Time

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    "We" did not rebuild Germany and Japan. They were modern countries with a functioning Government that could successfully take the lead and rebuild their own countries. Iraq and Afghanistan were not. We dismantled the Iraqi Government and it has failed to grain traction in any way that would pull the country out of a downward spiral. If you are seriously trying to compare the resources and structure of Germany/Japan to Iraq/Afghanistan then the discussion will go nowhere.
     
  9. go2church

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    Whew, the trip,to la-la Land was just crazy. Air is real thin, thinking hampered.
     
  10. kyredneck

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    ....thinking you posted on the wrong thread g2c... :) (unless there is something that has escaped me)
     
  11. kyredneck

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    But, we did indeed help rebuild several regions that were devastated in WW2. What was the Marshall plan all about?
     
  12. Bro. Curtis

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    I thought Russia blocked any Marshall Plan aid going to East Germany, and Japan never got any of it. The Marshall plan specifically covered Europe.
     
  13. kyredneck

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  14. Bro. Curtis

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    The Korean War is what brought Japan back on track.
     
  15. OldRegular

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    Occupation and Reconstruction of Japan, 1945–52

     
  16. OldRegular

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    Obama quietly reveals that he met with Muslim leaders with ties to Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood

    FEBRUARY 6, 2015 6:06 PM BY ROBERT SPENCER


    Obama Family Ties to the Muslim Brotherhood

     
  17. Use of Time

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    Yes, I'm not saying we left them to completely fend for themselves. We upheld the moral obligation to make sure these global powers could be reintroduced back into the global community. It was marginal compared to what is happening in Iraq. Japan and Germany aren't where they are today because of us and the Marshall Plan. They are there where they are because they actually had a functioning and participating government in which to direct resources and ultimately decide their own fate after we assisted. We aren't even close to that in Iraq. We were driving that train. Also weren't fighting a counterinsurgency in those Axix countries while we were trying to help them. Japan and Germany recognized mostly that the war was over and our respective governments were able to work as a team. At no point were we ever handling elections or making decisions for them.

    Just a big difference between third worlds countries decades behind the rest of the world technologically and super powers that were slapped down. Other war torn countries had speedy recoveries that predated the Marshall Plan. Belgium for example was a ravaged country that found its feet pretty quickly almost on it's own before the Marshall Plan. A lot of the Marshall Plan was just an economic jump start along with removing some dated trade restrictions that were imposed by Germany and Japan's wartime leadership.
     
    #17 Use of Time, Feb 25, 2015
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  18. The American Dream

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    So where in the Constitution does it say we should rebuild any nation which we have been at war with?
     
  19. OldRegular

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    Doesn't but it is likely that the treatment of Germany after WWI increased probability of WWII!
     
  20. The American Dream

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    That is a very good observation. And likely true. The thing that is so devastating about an undeclared war is that we seem to have half victories and end up fighting the same enemy again. It rears its head under different names, but it is still there. I think Iraq is a textbook study in how not to conduct a conflict. Forget the Constitution for a moment, because Washington DC has. In the 80s, when we were having all the trouble with Iran, we courted Saddam Hussein. We knew what kind of person he was, and his capabilities. Yet in order to counter one evil nation, we played footsy with another. In various ways we aided Iraq to cause trouble for Iran. So here comes along 1991 and Kuwait Iraq annexed Kuwait. So now, Saddam, buddy of the United States, all the sudden becomes the enemy of the United States. So in rather rapid fashion, we kick him out of Kuwait, but leave Saddam in power. 9/11 comes and goes. Then we decide to invade Iraq in 2003. We were there (and in a way still are) until 2013. Over 4000 US soldiers died, and trillions was spent. Lots of it was spent rebuilding. But hey, we finally found Saddam and his cabinet and most hanged. The hit and run attacks continued. Now we have the latest and greatest threat ISIS. Several questions come to mind. Would this threat be here today if we had fought to win a swift and sure victory in 2002?

    So to address your question if the way we treated Germany helped lead to WW2, I do not know. But its fair to ask, if it did help lead to the conditions that started WW2, was it the way we treated them after WW1, or did we (allies) fail to win a swift and sure victory? We spent billions after billions rebuilding Iraq, and the enemy is still there. Maybe it is not fair to compare the two. One was a declared war and the other was not. Also WW2 was brought in large part by the Japanese.

    Aside from not declaring war being a mistake since WW2, we as a nation founded on freedom, liberty and justice, should not our goal, as a last resort of war, be to fight for the same values? What on earth kind of values were we showing when we courted Saddam in the 80s? We have a pattern of propping up regimes that are against everything we stand for. We did the same thing in Chile. We spent 10+ years in Vietnam fighting the Communist regime in North Vietnam. 58000+ troops were killed. Today we are the best of friends with the regime we fought so long with. The pattern has been repeated numerous times in Central America, South America, and the Caribbean.
     

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