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Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by StraightAndNarrow, Jul 10, 2006.
This question is very simple.
Jesus said, "I came to seek and to save that which was lost" & "I came to give my life as a ransom" & "that the world through me might be saved" & "to reveal the Father".
Simple question & simple answer.
It looks like JJump hasn't voted yet. Still zero for millenial kingdom. :smilewinkgrin:
That's because it doesn't matter how many votes either gets the majority doesn't win necessarily it only matters what the bible says.
Jesus said He came only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. When He instructed the disciples when He sent them out they were instructed to ONLY go to the Jews.
His original intent was to spread the gospel of the kingdom, which He did. Because the gospel of the kingdom was rejected by Israel He had to die in order to allow the Gentiles a way in.
And let's just let Jesus tell us what He was preaching...From that time Jesus began to preach and say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
Looks pretty plain and simple to me to. He began to preach and say repent for the KINGDOM of heave is at hand.
Your approach indicates that Jesus did not really know why He came. And because He was rejected by Israel, He fell back on a secondary plan. Don't forget that after His death and resurrection the first church was almost entirely from a Jewish background. Paul was the apostle used of God to help the church understand that the Messiah was not just for Israel but for the Gentile also. We are not an add on in the plan of God. Jesus came to redeem the world. Certainly, the Gospel was to the Jew first, but Paul says it was to the Gentile also. Not that Jesus died to provide the Gentiles a way of salvation, as if He did not need to die for the Jews. He died for all.
He told us exactly why He came. He came to the lost sheep of the house of Israel and to the Jews only. That's not my words those are His words.
Not at all. He made a bonifed offer to Israel, that He knew from the very beginning would be rejected, and He knew that He would be crucified which is exactly what God planned from the very beginning.
What it does is show how AWESOME and AMAZING our God is to make a genuine offer that ties into His over all plan.
It doesn't confuse, but should make us turn and be even more amazed and in awe of how powerful He truly is to make some many things come into play but yet keep His ultimate plan right on track.
Yes the offer was reoffered after the death and resurrection of Christ.
Right, but he could only do that by presenting the good news of eternal salvation, which makes the spirit alive to understand the spiritual message of Christ as the Messiah.
I'm not adding on at all, but merely restating what has already been said in Scripture.
But what you are confusing is the two different messages of the gospel. You are saying the gospel is ONLY eternal salvation, but that is not the way the Bible lays it out. Gospel means good news. There is a gospel to the dead man in trespasses and sin and then there is a gospel to the spiritually alive man.
Israel rejected the gospel to the spiritually alive man (because they were already spiritually alive). Paul had to preach the first gospel to the Gentiles, because they were still spiritually dead. Once they were made alive spiritually then and only then was he able to preach the gospel that Israel rejected, which is the gospel of the kingdom.
The kingdom and eternal salvation are two distinct messages, but most of Christendom tries to combine them and that's were trouble starts.
And it was and still is today.
Technically yes He died for all because His blood went backwards and made the blood of the animals sufficient at the time.
But Israel was already spiritually alive, and as such were already in a position to accept or reject the offer of the kingdom.
Gentiles were not spiritually alive and were not in a position to accept or reject that offer until they accepted the blood and death of Jesus.
But Jesus said:
That was a reference to the Gentiles.
Are you saying that all Jews are saved?
Do you follow John Hagee?
Hebrews tell us that
The animal sacrifices did not save - they were a means of temporary forgiveness only. But you are saying, it seems, that the Jews were saved by the animal sacrifices because Jesus' blood was applied to them. That is not what the Bible says, however.
JJ, I hear what you are saying. Your terminology is the difficulty. I don't think that with regard to eternal salvation we are in any disagreement at all. It is when you divide spirit and soul and kingdom and eternal salvation and gospel for the dead and gospel for the alive that you lose everyone. You need to go back to the drawing board with your mentor that you learned all this from, i.e., the websites you gave me. There has to be a clearer way for you to present your doctrine. From my point of view, brother, you are really struggling, and that should not be.
It was, but the time of the Gentiles had not yet come, and would not and could not come until after His death. That was a prophecy of what was to come, not what was true then.
The hearing of that flock is in the future tense.
Not today no. But in the NT times I think it is safe to say that all of Israel was saved, becuase the Pascal offerings were made on a national basis not an individual basis.
I see no other indication is Scripture that would lead me to think otherwise. But there was a generation in which God no longer accepted the blood of animals, and from that generation forward the Jews had to come through the blood of Christ, just like the Gentiles.
No. Do you? I have watched his program ocassionally and actually went to Cornerstone once when visiting my in-laws just to see what it was like.
But I do not endorse his teachings as a whole, especially his teachings on Israel.
It wasn't the actual animal sacrifices that save, but the faith that God told them that was what they were to do to appease Him. That blood pointed forward to the actual shedding of the blood of THE LAMB!
Grace through faith is the ONLY thing that saves throughout the corridor of human history. But what God has told people to believe has changed throughout the dispensations.
Actually, it was not a reference to the Gentiles. It was a reference to the Israelite Tribes and Jews which were still dispersed throughout the world. Jews were living in Rome and other in other nations throughout. They were not all living in Israel when Jesus lived there. Thus, "they are not of this fold."
It's difficult to follow for people because the church has abandoned this teaching for so many years now. But if this was being spoken of from our pulpits it would make just as much sense as the simple message of eternal salvation.
It's the unfamiliarity that makes it difficult to follow at first.
I don't know how I can make it any clearer. I have repeated what the Bible has to say on the matter. I think clarity will have to come through prayer that the Holy Spirit will open up one's eyes to His Truth and make it clear to them what He is trying to teach them.
The problem is the Bible uses the same terms to speak of both messages. The Bible uses faith and grace and salvation, and that is what leads people off track, because most people when they see those words they automatically assume what is being talked about instead of looking for the context.
Christendom is in the same boat that Israel was in during the NT. Our church leaders don't believe this message and the don't want their people to hear this message, so just like the Pharisees and the Saducees they are leading their people off a cliff, becuase they are the ones that were put in charge of teaching the people.
But thankfully we have the Holy Spirit that will lead us and guide us into ALL Truth if we are willing to let Him. Or we can continue to believe that church tradition is right and take what our teachers teach us without ever studying it out for our own.
That's what I did for so many years unfortunately! And I didn't know any better, because nobody told many any different until about five years ago. And thanks be to God that the Spirit rattled my chain during that time!! I am forever grateful!!!
Great point that I never thought of, because Jesus didn't even allow the disciples to go to the Samritans (half-breed Jews) in the beginning. That's why He said to Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria and then the rest of the world.
However wouldn't you say though that could be a secondary application pointing to the Gentiles at least?
Red flag! Red flag! Red flag! The words above are what I was talking about on another thread.
Purple flag! Purple flag! Purple flag! What in the world are you talking about?
JJ, I believe in the "priesthood of the believer." I'm capable of correct interpretation of scripture in the spirit, never from the flesh, the intellect. I'm careful to observe 1 Corinthians 2:9-16 and similar references. The idea that my pastor doesn't want me to know this smacks of the superiority of the pastor in Biblical interpretation. That won't wash. No one, pastor or otherwise, is capable of "keeping a secret from me." That's ancient Catholicism. The Word is the Word. God is not going to bring a "divine revelation" to anyone today. It is already in the Word. Everything we need to know is there. Your dispensational viewpoint is there. OSAS is there. I suspect that your mentor is confusing dispensational and OSAS scripture in an effort to explain the different applications. Notice I said "I suspect," not "I know." I'm just asking you to lean back and sort it all out again. I'd love to drop by your church and worship Our Lord with you. I know I don't need to say this, but "keep the faith!"
You obviously misread what I was saying. The pastor/teacher is given to help guide the lay person, but it is ultimately up to the lay person as to what they believe.
But in today's generation the lay person doesn't study for himself/herself. He/She accepts what the pastor/teacher says and that is truth, whether it be Truth or lie, it's all truth to them, because they don't know any better and most of them not care no know any better unfortunately.
Drop me a PM or email! I'd love to meet you and visit with you!
And may you keep the faith as well!!!!
Yes, possibly. :flower:
We played capture the flag one time in college. I really enjoyed that game.:laugh:
I'm like Rudolph. I never got to join in any reindeer games. Nobody wants the fat kid :laugh:
Red flag is a term used to indicate that something may be amiss. For example, person x saying all christendom has been wrong and has been interpreting salvation scriptures wrong all these centuries but he (person x) has the right interpretation is a red flag.