Odessa: Terrible last 12 hrs.

Discussion in 'News / Current Events' started by Gina B, May 3, 2014.

  1. Gina B

    Gina B
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  2. poncho

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    John McCain's boyz did this?

    Blame it on Obama if he'd send them proper weapons they wouldn't have to use fire.

    It looks like the Right Sector got the IMF memo.

    IMF approved the $17bn tranched loan to Ukraine last night, Gazprom gets paid; Ukraine gets its cash; and the door's wide open for the US and EU to pour more 'controlling influence' into the divided nation... Except there's one thing:

    IF UKRAINE GOVERNMENT LOSES EFFECTIVE CONTROL OVER EAST OF COUNTRY, $17 BLN IMF BAILOUT WOULD NEED TO BE REDESIGNED

    Which, roughly translated, appears to mean go to war with pro-Russian forces (and thus Russia itself if Putin sees his apparent countrymen in trouble) or you don't get your money!


    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-05-01/imf-warns-ukraine-fight-east-or-no-money
     
    #2 poncho, May 3, 2014
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  3. Gina B

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    Poncho, will you please explain the John McCain comment and how it relates in this? I haven't kept up with the US part in this like I should, too focused on what is actually happening within the area itself. I hadn't even realized the loan part, so thanks for that information. I've gotten lazy the last few days and have only been reading in English. Gotta catch up...
     
  4. poncho

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    Sure Gina. John McCain receives more campaign money from the military industrial complex than any other politician according to those who keep track of such things. It seems he hold's this record because he is their number one salesman.

    He's usually the first United States representative and I use the term loosely to jump on a plane and fly off to which ever country Washington and it's army of NGOs are sponsoring extremists and radicals for the purpose of regime change for a few photo ops.

    He loves to pose for photos with what the western media calls "rebels" and "peaceful protesters" that turn out as in the case of the Syrian "rebels" he had his picture taken with to be kidnappers and murderers.

    But this never seems to phase him as he calls on Washington to send money and arms to them.

    He flew over to Ukraine to have his picture taken with some of the top fascist neo nazis (that are joined at the hip with the IMF and the international banks, hence the term fascist) who co opted the Maidan protests to violently overthrow the Ukrainian government. At which point he scolded Obama for not sending these bigoted violent extremists money and weapons to further their struggle to enslave the whole of Ukraine under the yoke of the international bankers perpetual debt programs.

    Which when translated into Washington and the corporate media's double speak means "poor innocent people struggling to free themselves from their evil oppressors".

    Evidently there isn't a wacked out extremist or violent radical on the planet that John McCain doesn't want to fund and arm at the American taxpayer's expense.

    Basically John McCain is a fascist warmongering neocon that believes the American taxpayer should foot the bill so a few of his corporate cronies can keep the war profits growing and flowing well into the future.

    In other words he's a flim flam man for the corporate fascists in the USA and Europe.
     
    #4 poncho, May 3, 2014
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  5. Gina B

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  6. poncho

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    I listen to Max quite often. Gerald Celente is another person not unlike Max I like listening to. http://www.trendsresearch.com/trends-journal-tv/ I'm sure Gerald's language will upset most readers delicate sensibilities so they won't listen to him and most of the posters here only want to go on believing in the illusion Washington and the corporate media have carefully crafted for them so they'll go out of their way to condemn me for posting his website. I'm passed the the point of caring about all that now.

    I won't find anything on CNN because I never watch it. :smilewinkgrin:
     
    #6 poncho, May 3, 2014
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  7. poncho

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    America’s “Immaculate Conception” Theory of War Crimes

    Ukrainian War Crimes Whitewashed by Western Press

    After more than 30 people died in a fire in the Ukranian seaside resort town of Odessa, the Western press pretended that no one knows what happened or whose fault it was. For example, see this stories from the Guardian and BBC.

    But USA Today reports:

    Witnesses and journalists reported that as the building burned with people inside, a crowd shouted, “Glory to Ukraine!” and “Death to enemies!” [These are neo-Nazi slogans.]

    ***

    [T]he Associated Press reported that the Russian sympathizers took refuge in the trade union hall on Kulikovo Field Square after government supporters rousted their encampment outside and then burned their tents. Police said the building was set on fire with Molotov cocktails.

    At 5 seconds into this 15-second video, you can see a Molotov cocktail being thrown at the building in which the Russian sympathizers:

    See The Video Here: http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/05/americas-immaculate-conception-theory-war-crimes.html
     
  8. Gina B

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    There are other viewpoints as to what happened: http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukr...secution-by-pro-russian-activists-346107.html

    What were the Russian citizens doing there? Maidan is walking around with really poor defense, you notice in the news what they're using for weapons, while pro-Russians and Russian citizens (again, WHY are they there at the moment?) have heavy duty gear and assault weapons. It's tough for me to believe Ukraine citizens as the aggressor on their own land in this. It makes no sense when you put it all together and see the daily happenings, the photos, the daily journals of eyewitnesses.
     
  9. poncho

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    I'm starting to think the most accurate reporting in that area comes form the comment section in youtube.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-nbK475E44

    May, 1st 2014 Odessa, Ukraine - Video footage showing Right Sector and Ultra pro-Kiev nationalists storming the streets, burning tents and starting fires on the Trade Unions House where hundreds of anti-Kiev activists were located. As many as 31 have been confirmed dead.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAEcceedzCU

    http://rt.com/news/156480-odessa-fire-protesters-dead/
     
    #9 poncho, May 3, 2014
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  10. poncho

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    Ron Paul
    Infowars.com
    May 3, 2014

    It looks like the civil war in Ukraine is getting much worse. Western Ukraine right now is being urged on by its Western supporters, meaning its NATO supporters, the European Union, the United States, and the International Monetary Fund (IMF). Western Ukraine has moved to take back control of the cities in Eastern Ukraine that have been taken over by supporters of Russia.

    Of course, it’s said in the major media that Russia has started all of this trouble, and so all this has to be done. The truth is, the coup of several weeks ago to overthrow the elected leader Viktor Yanokovych was stirred up by the same group: NATO, the European Union, the US, and the IMF.

    Since this whole mess was started, we’ve been very much involved, spending more than $5 billion to control Ukraine. And this intervention continues. But the current fighting looks like a serious escalation that may get out of control, even though it’s in the interest on both sides, the West as well as Russia, not to escalate. There have been a lot of threats and intimidation on sanctions and economic penalties, which very well could get out of control.

    Added recently has been a promise from the IMF of $17 billion to Ukraine under a specific condition: get rid of the control of these Eastern cities by Russian supporters. This is a condition that has been placed on them, so it’s not a surprise that seemingly all of a sudden we are seeing more aggressive activity by the Western Ukrainians to try to conquer these cities.

    Ironically, the IMF doesn’t seem to have much common sense in trying to help the Ukrainian people, because in order to get this $17 billion not only must they fight and control the East, they also have to raise taxes and increase oil prices — which will not help the people. This is generally the case when there are sanctions placed on a country, or when war breaks out: the people suffer and the special interests seem to thrive.

    Also, I think this is certainly a shift from pretending that the Western Ukrainians are on the defensive because they’ve now instituted a military draft. In all seriousness, if a country is defending itself, then the people rally and you don’t have to use conscription to get fighters.

    Read More At: http://www.infowars.com/ron-paul-on-ukraine-why-are-we-are-making-things-worse/
     
  11. poncho

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    No Russians among Slavyansk self-defense forces – NYT reporters

    Self-defense forces in the anti-Kiev stronghold of Slavyansk are Ukrainians, not Russians, who distrust the new regime and the Western powers that support it, New York Times reporters have discovered. The forces also said they are not being paid to fight.

    Two New York Times reporters have spent a week in the city of Slavyansk in eastern Ukraine, talking to members of the self-defense forces. The journalists visited self-defense checkpoints and observed the forces as they battled Ukrainian troops amid a military assault on the city on Friday.

    The resistance fighters of the 12th Company, part of the People’s Self-Defense of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic, deny claims made by Kiev and its Western sponsors that Russia or private tycoons are paying them to fight.

    “This is not a job,” one of the activists, Dmitry told the NYT reporters. “It is a service.”

    Armed with dated weapons, the self-defense activists said they would have bought new weapons if they had financial support. The NYT journalists reported seeing weapons from the 1980s and 1990s in checkpoints and warehouses.

    Read More At: http://rt.com/news/156736-no-russians-ukraine-activists/

    Starting to make more sense now Gina?
     
  12. Gina B

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    This last link you shared Poncho: http://rt.com/news/156736-no-russians-ukraine-activists/

    Do you have one that says what they want? They keep being called pro-Russians by others, so is that inaccurate, or are they trying to say they are just pro-Russian culture among themselves in Ukraine? Do they want Russia to take over, or become heavily involved, or no? If not, what do they want to accomplish? I'm not understanding what they are trying to do, what they are fighting for.

    The link says they felt threatened after there was a proposal to no longer have Russian be an official language. That seems a weak reason to go to war. That was their turning point? That's the only thing I'm seeing in here about their purpose, apart from vague references to Ukrainian rights and opinions, which all would have a right to, on their own soil, and unlike Crimea, seems they are not the majority in the rest of Ukraine.
     
  13. Gina B

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    Gotta wonder what this would have been like if everyone else would have stayed out of it, completely, until they settled the civil issues within. If that would have been possible. No help, no offers, no nothing from anybody until they settled themselves.
     
  14. poncho

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    My guess is they'd rather stay with the devil they know (the Russian oligarchs) rather than to go with the devil (the western oligarchs) that's trying to marginalize them demonize them and knock their doors down to kill them and take over their land and economy by intrigue and force.

    I think they (Ukrainians) probably picked up the newspaper or went online and read the IMF ultimatum to their pet fascist coup government in Kyiv that basically said "subdue the Russian loyalists by force and start a war with Russia or you don't get the bail out money we promised you".

    Here's more on those New York Times reporters . . .

    Mainstream Media Is Being Forced to Retract Its Propaganda More and More Quickly

    The New York Times pushed fabricated evidence in the run up to the Iraq war. A year later, the newspaper apologized for its inaccurate, one-sided coverage.

    The U.S. and the New York Times pretended that Syria’s government was responsible for the chemical weapons attack … but that claim was debunked, and even the New York Times was forced to retract it several months later. (The alternative media, including Pulitzer prize winning reporter Seymour Hersh, has also pointed out that it was the Syrians rebels – with the help of the Turkish government – did it).

    Then the U.S. and the New York Times pretended that they had proof that Russian soldiers were the mysterious “masked men” seizing government buildings in Ukraine. But a couple of days later, they were forced reporting from the alternative media – especially Robert Parry, winner of the George Polk Award for National Reporting – into retracting that claim, and admitting that their “proof” was almost as flimsy as proof of Saddam’s “weapons of mass destruction”.

    Indeed, even the New York Times now admits that the Russian army is not directly responsible for the anti-government protests in Ukraine. As Parry notes:

    Read More At: http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/05/new-york-times-admits-russia-sending-pro-russian-fighters-ukraine.html
     
    #14 poncho, May 5, 2014
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  15. Gina B

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    From what I've seen, and in my opinion thus far...the sources closest in Ukraine do not call them Russian, but pro-Russian. In what appeared to be a roadside interview, it seems there were some Russians, but they were not there via Putin by a long shot, nor did they seem organized. More like a radical faction that emerged upon request for help from Ukrainian pro-Russian activists. (guess that's what they could be called, right?)

    I don't know how much news from where is to be trusted though. I'm sure there's propaganda from all sides, to a point. The most trust I have is for freelance journalists, blogging citizens who really have nothing to gain by not just photographing what they see, or just by listening to what you hear people say in the background of videos, voices in the background if you will, as they run past. Things that weren't purposely being recorded as part of the video. It's much more telling.
    Which is why we all need to learn every language on earth. LOL We won't be as subject to lies and prop if we can properly dissect stuff...darn tower of Babel!
     
  16. poncho

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    To some people, most people actually things like this only make sense when they think about them in terms of "us vs them".

    Trying to cut through all the propaganda and put what evidence we can find in proper context without immediately taking sides "in the fight" will only earn us a place in the "paranoid marxist conspiracy theorist" hall of fame Gina.

    But what hay I've already earned my place there. :smilewinkgrin:
     
    #16 poncho, May 5, 2014
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  17. Gina B

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    I hope the frames are properly artistic. :laugh:

    Here is a site that I'd like to know the origins of, or at least learn more about the author of this particular piece: http://khpg.org/index.php?id=1399333622
     
  18. poncho

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    So far they haven't used much imagination or originality. Mostly it's just repeating the same old worn out Washington and corporate media leftie vs rightie talking points, fear mongering, shooting the messenger and name calling, and hypocrisy, oodles and oodles of it.

    Sometimes I think if it weren't for their double standards they wouldn't have any at all.

    Mean while . . .

    In the name of a "free and independent media," the US government through its Agency for International Development (USAID) has announced that it will dedicate an additional $1.25 million to subsidize the Ukrainian media in advance of the May 25th presidential election.

    Through its multi-year "U-Media" project, USAID has been a major sponsor of the Ukrainian press. It goes without saying that the media outlets and organizations underwritten by the US government in Ukraine adhere closely to the US government's foreign policy position in the country and region. There will be no US government support for alternative media when it favors the government in power.

    The infusion of more than a million dollars into US government-friendly media outlets and NGOs in Ukraine just weeks before the presidential election should be seen for what it is: direct external manipulation of the democratic process in Ukraine.

    Nevertheless, the US interference is advertised as "supporting platforms for free and open communications."

    But USAID makes it clear which side this project is intended to support:

    Read More At: http://www.ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/peace-and-prosperity/2014/may/03/free-press-usaid-increases-funding-to-pro-kiev-media.aspx

    Here's where things really start to get weird Gina. http://pando.com/2014/02/28/pierre-omidyar-co-funded-ukraine-revolution-groups-with-us-government-documents-show/
     
    #18 poncho, May 5, 2014
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  19. Gina B

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    I'll have to look at those after work Poncho, almost time to go.
    In the meantime, please watch the videos in the link. I didn't look at them, because I've seen them elsewhere prior to them being posted. They're interesting, especially the one where the gun is being shot and the one side is behind authorities. That's the one where I'd love someone to interpret what is being said in the background.
    As for the picture of the fire, those were posted at the time it was happening elsewhere. Look at the dress of those rescuing others and those involved.
    The third floor fire - there seemed to be eyewitness that it was started from within by someone trying to throw it out and it didn't break the glass, though downstairs, it was people throwing them in while inside, people were said to be throwing them out.

    All of it is awful - just wish the news wasn't corrupted. There's no reason we, anyone, should have to go through piles of lies to figure out the truth. What a mess...

    If everyone would just stop and quit giving in to outside people trying to mess with their country, maybe they could get things together. Wonder if they could be self-sufficient if they tried that - or if anyone would LET them if they wanted to try.
     
  20. poncho

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    Ukraine is to important strategically and resource wise to leave it to the Ukrainians.
     

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