Old and New Testament Equally God-breathed ?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by pinoybaptist, Feb 27, 2008.

  1. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    8,123
    Likes Received:
    1


    In line with the post created in this same forum on inerrancy and infallibility, I would like to pose this question, for healthy debate and argumentation.

    I will take the negative side.

    Resolved, that the New Testament is equally as inspired and God-breathed as the Old Testament.

    On the negative side, I will say no, because both Peter and Paul at the time they were writing their epistles, knew nothing of a New Testament Bible, and that when they use the word "Scriptures" they refer to the Old Testament and only to the Old Testament, and never referred to their own epistles and writings as equally inspired.

    Secondly, that those who declared the New Testament to be as God-breathed as the Old Testament were men who existed after the time of Paul and Peter, and had no apostolic authority as these two men have to declare which of God's word is inspired and which is not.

    In other words, I question the authority of those who declared both Old and New Testaments as equally inspired.

    (For the record, I hold that ALL scripture, Old and New, are God-breathed, but would like to better understand why I believe this, and not to believe it simply because this was what Bible College taught me.)
     
  2. StefanM

    StefanM
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    6,430
    Likes Received:
    72
    Peter considered Paul's writings to be Scripture:


    2Pe 3:15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
    2Pe 3:16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
    (ESV)
     
  3. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    8,123
    Likes Received:
    1
    I agree, Stefan.
    And as we all know, it is almost common practice for NT saints to read Paul's letters when they are meeting.
    But I tried to put that in modern context.
    Picture a persecuted church, say, in China.
    The believers meet, they sing psalms, read the Bible, or howmuchever of it they have, say, a page or two, of the New Testament.
    And then they bring out a letter from their underground missionary, who is in another part of China, maybe even in prison, smuggled in through the mazes of courier systems that underground groups have.
    This letter contains doctrine, which is, teaching, and refers to Old and New Testament passages.
    As usual, there are scoffers, probably among the state "sanctioned" above ground churches, who twist the Bible and its doctrines to fit their own compromising positions.
    Now somebody in the underground church says, "don't mind them, they are stupid and ignorant of the truth. They twist Missionary Chung's letter and meanings like they do the other Scriptures".

    Does that mean they hold Missionary Chung's letters to be as equally authoritative as the Old Testament and the New Testament ?

    Did Peter really mean to say Paul's letters were as equally inspired as the Old Testament was ?

    (catcha'll later. heading out to the gym. after I shovel the overnight snow.)
     
    #3 pinoybaptist, Feb 27, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 27, 2008
  4. Beth

    Beth
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2007
    Messages:
    477
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes

    The entire Bible is the Word of God.
     
  5. donnA

    donnA
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2000
    Messages:
    23,354
    Likes Received:
    0
    If the O.T. and N.T. were not equally inspired, then the N.T. may not be all the word of God, how much was only personal opinion. If it were even only partially inspired, then wouldn't God know how much scripture He was going to inspire, and include it all in 1Tim.3:16.(sounds like aparadox) I believe God is in control, and the bible is 100% the word of God, 100% God inspired.
     
  6. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    8,123
    Likes Received:
    1
    Can anyone brief us on the history of this doctrine of Inspiration of the Holy Scriptures ?

    I seem to recall that this doctrine came about through Catholic synods or something, but my recollection is hazy.
     
  7. StefanM

    StefanM
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    6,430
    Likes Received:
    72
    That phrase indicates that Peter considers Paul's letters to be "Scripture."

    Even in your hypothetical case, it would imply the same thing abot the letter in question.

    If you didn't consider them Scripture, you wouldn't say "other." You'd simply say "Scripture."

    The only debatable point here, IMO, hinges on the term translated "Scriptures." Literally, "graphas" means "writings." I think it's being used in the technical sense here, as it is often used in the NT. I could see someone arguing that it simply meant writings in general, but I think the use of "loipos" ("remaining", translated "other" here) tends toward the technical meaning.
     
    #7 StefanM, Feb 27, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 27, 2008
  8. Salamander

    Salamander
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2005
    Messages:
    3,965
    Likes Received:
    0
    Scarey that we live in a day when some would attempt to pit the Old testament against the New testament in any fashion!

    even so, Come! Lord Jesus!
     
  9. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    8,123
    Likes Received:
    1
    Nobody's pitting the Old Testament against the New Testament here, salamander.
    What I'm trying to do is to help strengthen our reasoning on why the Scriptures ARE inspired.
    And in case you don't ever come out of your denominational shell, know for a fact that most atheists and skeptics DO question the fact that it is the Roman Catholic synods that declared ALL Scripture to be inspired, including the New Testament.
    The Bible says to be ready to give a reason for the faith that is in you, and that is exactly why I started this thread.
    Now, if you don't have anything positive to contribute, zip up.
     
  10. TCGreek

    TCGreek
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2006
    Messages:
    7,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    When Paul referred to sacred Scripture in 2 Tim 3:15-17, he was referring to the OT canon and whatever NT Scriptures were in circulation (1 Tim 5:18, "For the Scripture says... The laborer deserves his wages;” a quote of Luke 10:7).
     
  11. The Scribe

    The Scribe
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2006
    Messages:
    952
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree, the entire Bible is God's inspired word. There's no need to debate this. We don't need to make God's word acceptable to anyone. They will either believe or they will make up an excuse not to believe.
     
  12. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2008
    Messages:
    16,653
    Likes Received:
    158
    Voice from the past

    Peter Rideman (1506-1556) wrote:

    "The light of devine truth hath appeared more brightly in Christ, who hath revealed to us the real will of the Father...the law was given to Moses, but in truth came by Christ."

    Rideman goes on to say that God's demand for His people was found in the words spoken by Jesus and not in 'the shadows' of the Old Testament.
     
  13. Salamander

    Salamander
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2005
    Messages:
    3,965
    Likes Received:
    0
    Funny, I thought making it clear the entirety of the Bible is inspired was positive, well, except according to what you seem to believe.

    In dealing with the skeptics and atheists, first one must establish doctrine. That CANNOT be accomplished through THEIR unwillingnesses to hold to the established doctrines.

    Making it conclusive that it could alter the established facts of the word of God in doctrine IS SCAREY!
     
    #13 Salamander, Feb 28, 2008
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2008
  14. MB

    MB
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    2,557
    Likes Received:
    13
    Hi pinoybaptist; Nothing man ever wrote of his own ever had as much power as the gospel . Inspired by God it is. The evidence isn't that it says it is, but that it's power proves it is. It's wisdom proves it. The way it effects even the non believer, proves it is because, it prophesized it in advance. No other religious book has ever had the wisdom, prophecy and attraction as does the New testiment. All of this leaves no doubt of it for me
    MB
     
  15. Salamander

    Salamander
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2005
    Messages:
    3,965
    Likes Received:
    0
    AMEN! PREACH IT!

    What'd'ja'say, Ed?
     
  16. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,165
    Likes Received:
    322
    I believe understand Pinoy.

    There are at least two components to our stand concerning the Word of God, both Old and New Testaments.

    1) The leading and illumination of the Holy Spirit.

    John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

    Because the Spirit of Christ is within us we recognize His truth when we see it.

    This has a presumption that we are walking in the Spirit and not after the flesh - carnal (as the Corinthians).

    1 John 5
    8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
    9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
    10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

    Then ​

    2) Add to the leading and enlightenment of the Spirit - Our Faith

    Hebrews 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.​

    Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.​

    1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.​

    HankD​
     
  17. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    8,123
    Likes Received:
    1
    salamander, what I believe is stated very clearly in the OP. I believe the whole Bible, the Scriptures, is God-breathed. You missed it because you're looking for heretics and heresy and are quick to jump at one when you see something you think is heretical, and quick to grab the opportunity to point the finger at the heretic.
    I stated it right there precisely because of "headhunters", like you, who cannot seem to understand when someone is just looking to broaden one's understanding and strengthen one's conviction thru the help of others' positive and thoughtfuly input, rather than knee-jerk condemnation and insinuations of another's "disbelief" and "heresy".

    Why should it be scarey ? It is scarey only to them who have no real faith in what they believe. I am not scared (I am sorry you are, I hope you get more courage of your convictions) because I know whom I have believed.

    But let's get back to the facts.

    FACT: Jesus quoted from the OLD TESTAMENT, so 98% of the time, whenever He referred to Scriptures, He meant the Old Testament.

    FACT: Jesus' words without question is God-breathed, Him being God Himself.

    FACT: The Book of Revelation, is God-breathed, because Jesus, who is God, warned against deducting or adding to the words of THAT book;

    FACT: Paul undoubtedly meant the Old Testament whenever he said Scriptures.

    FACT: Even Peter undoubtedly meant the Old Testament whenever he referred to the Scriptures.

    FACT: Paul and the writers of the General Epistles never referred or indicated that they thought of their writings as God-breathed.

    FACT: You, others, and I, take it BY FAITH that BOTH testaments are divinely inspired. This was passed down the line to us, and taught to us in Bible Colleges, preached to us in the pulpits, and accepted as such by us.

    Since this is a discussion board, supposedly, I put this question in for brotherly, loving, and enlightening discussions and inputs, not fingerpointing and insinuating on another's belief and faith.
     
  18. Salamander

    Salamander
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2005
    Messages:
    3,965
    Likes Received:
    0
    Are you always this paranoid?

    What you so arrogantly DON'T understand is we are both arguing the same point from the same side!

    You're approaching this from the intellectual's perspective which alters your sense of knowing who is on your side. What a shame!



    I believe you introduced this thread as a means of attacking those who would debate your ideal.

    How is it you determine other's faith as if it's real or not real?

    After that blatant and unjustified attack you should STAY with the FACTS!

    Um, Jesus wrote the O.T. as penned down by the men He inspired as well as the N.T.

    Case closed!

    I don't understand what other points you could make this statement to be more concrete than concrete itsself!
    Sorry I answered your folly with emphatic truth,except that I am only sorry you didn't see it from the start.

    then I can't understand why you remain to the contrary in your repsonses to me?

    You are guilty by your own accusation, friend!
     
  19. sag38

    sag38
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2008
    Messages:
    4,394
    Likes Received:
    1
    Peter himself verified the inspiration of Paul's writings in II Peter 3:15-16. "And regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to thier own destruction." NASB

    Oh, and let's not have this argument that II Peter shouldn't even be in the Bible or that parts of it are subject to textual scrutiny. It's very clear what he writes here. So in order to disagree you will have to discredit the whole book itself. Give me a break.
     
  20. EdSutton

    EdSutton
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2006
    Messages:
    8,755
    Likes Received:
    0
    Certainly some of Paul's letters were Scripture, at the discretion of the Holy Spirit. However, unlike Marcion, the Heretic, I do not believe (nor do I think the majority of orthodox Christian believe) that the Laodicean Epistle was Scripture. (Col. 4:16).

    [Was there also a 'third' letter to the Corinthian church? (II Cor. 12, 13) Check out this - the Acts of Paul , which includes a third Epistle to the Corinthian church, and was believe to be Scripture by the 'orthodox' Syrian church fathers, Aphraat and Ephraem.]

    Paul wanted the Laodicean Epistle read, just as the Colossian Epistle, however, to the church. Paul, ergo, did not necessarily know what he was writing was Scripture, per se, even though Peter recognized, at least some of what Paul wrote, as Scripture, and hence on an exact par with "the other Scriptures".

    Ed
     

Share This Page

Loading...