Old Man, New Man

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by James_Newman, Dec 15, 2006.

  1. James_Newman

    James_Newman
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    One of the arguments put forth recently against the idea that a Christian can receive negative rewards at the judgment seat of Christ seems to hinge on the fact that Christians have been created a new creature. The argument goes something like this: I will not suffer in any way for sins committed in the flesh, even as a believer, because those were committed by the old man, while it is the new man that will appear at the judgment seat of Christ to receive only rewards. I don't believe that this is a reasonable argument. It sounds good at first, but it leaves a lot more doctrinal problems than it 'solves' (assuming that reward according to works is a problem to be solved).

    What is the nature of the 'new man'? Is the new man a separate entity from the old man? Can the actions of one man reasonably be ascribed to another man? Any thoughts?
     
  2. Brother Bob

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    The above quote is in this life for the children of God.
     
  3. Blammo

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    The new man is spiritual, the old man is the flesh. Both natures are at war. We are commanded to walk in the Spirit, so as not to fulfill the lust of the flesh. So, I would conclude that it is possible to walk in the Spirit and not fulfill the lust of the flesh, or to fulfill the lust of the flesh while not walking in the Spirit. So, in my view, we are responsible for what the old man does. Because, as long as we are here on earth, we are both the new and old man.

    Scripture makes it clear that, though we are saved and all our sins forgiven, we do now, and will in the future, face consequences for our works.
     
  4. Lacy Evans

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    Mike brought up on another thread that if the "new man" can possibly receive a LOSS of reward (at the JSOC), for things that the "old man" did, then why not other negative rewards?

    In other words, "Loss of reward" is a negative reward in of itself, so to say that their can be no negative reward, only loss of reward, is not a reasonable statement.

    Lacy
     
  5. James_Newman

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    I would think that the idea of two separate people taking responsibility for different types of works would have serious implications for the atonement. Who's sins did Jesus die on the cross for? The old man's sins? The new man's sins? If making me a new creature could get me off the hook, why did Jesus have to die in the first place?
     
  6. Bartimaeus

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    Hey Howdy Bro Lacy,
    Long time since we talked last.

    This position of seclusion/judgement has several "jumps" (for the lack of a better word) that I have not been able to get over.

    One of these is just on this issue raised in this thread. The new man will be in a new glorified body. There are those who maintain according to I Cor that that new man will be "destroyed" ("destruction of the body"). When the person is finally released from judgement will another new body be created? If a person dies today and passes into the presence of God are they then cast into hell or do they just exist (however that is) until the time of the kingdom and then are cast into judgement? Can I die today and pay for my sins before the kingdom and then be reinstated as a profitable servant for kingdom service?

    God used Wesley, Whitfield, Spurgeon and others not because they had certain peculiar doctrines, but in SPITE of them. We ought to be careful who we bring up to back our position.

    Thanks Bartimaeus/Ky/Look Away!
     
  7. AresMan

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    Why did Jesus die, if those for whom He died still pay for their sins in hell?
     
  8. LeBuick

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    I'm having trouble understanding what you mean by "responsible" once I have given my life to Christ. How much of what I do is Christ working through me and how much do I attribute to the sin that liveth in me? Do I contribute every good thing I do to Christ who lives in me and every wrong or sinful thing I do to the evil that lives in me? Does evil live in the heart of the saved?

    Works? What are the works of the saved? This same question was asked to our saviour so let us look at his response;

    John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
    29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

    Now if I believe in him whom he sent then I am saved. If I believe not in him whom he sent then I am not saved. I don't see this middle ground of consequences you speak of? Where would that be?
     
  9. LeBuick

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    Very interesting reponse, if Jesus paid the price for all since past, present and future then why will I have to ante up come judgement day? Was his payment not sufficient? Is their still a blance due?
     
  10. J. Jump

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    Well let's answer a question with a question. If Jesus has already paid the price for my sins past, present and future (which means they are as far as the east is from the west to be remembered no more correct?) then why do I have to confess something that has already been taken care of?

    Why am I reminding God of something that He has removed as far as the east is from the west? A better question is why is God removing my sins and then bringing them back to convict me?
     
  11. Bartimaeus

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    Let's answer a question with a question. If Christ is my advocate and is constantly making intercession for me, then right before I stand before my Saviour at the JSOC, I guess He turns in His resignation so that He can be my purging judge?

    I have a full time Saviour/I have an Advocate both "steadfast and sure".

    Thanks Bartimaeus/Ky/Look Away!
     
    #11 Bartimaeus, Dec 16, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 16, 2006
  12. av1611jim

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    If all my sins are forgiven, past, present and future, then why do I have to give account of myself at the JSOC?

    Ro 14:7
    For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
    Ro 14:8
    For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
    Ro 14:9
    For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
    Ro 14:10
    But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
    Ro 14:11
    For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
    Ro 14:12
    So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
     
  13. Lacy Evans

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    This is fun.

    If Christ's payment gets me off the hook for every sin including those which I commit after salvation, then on what grounds does the Father chasten me at all?
    When I stand at the JSOC, might I just sing the old song?

    What sins are you talking about?
    I don't remember them anymore.

    From the Book of Life they've all been torn out​

    I don't remember them anymore.




    Will that be adequate defense to keep me from suffering loss?After all was it not my "old man" who committed any sins that would cause me to be chastened so?

    Lacy


    PS It is also good to see you again my friend.
     
    #13 Lacy Evans, Dec 16, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 16, 2006
  14. LeBuick

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    Are you reminding God when you confess or is cofession for the confessor? God knows your sin, present and future and certianly remembers your past. Confession doesn't benefit God, it is for you. I don't support this thought but it's like AA. You first have to admit you are an alchoholic. You first need to confess you're a sinner in need of salvation before you will surrender yourself to the divine will of a saviour.

    Let's face it, if you can swim the flood then the boat is not called a rescue boat. It is just a ride to safety. It's when you surrender to the fact there is no other way of surviving the flood that you call it a rescue boat.
     
  15. Helen

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    I'm thinking there may be some confusion here between sins being atoned for and sins being forgiven. All sins were atoned for on the cross. No insults are left standing before God -- eternal justice is satisfied.

    HOWEVER, atonement is legal, and forgiveness is a personal thing. A man might murder your mother and be executed for it. Justice has been served. That, though, says nothing about whether or not you forgive him. They are two very different things.

    On the cross Jesus atoned for ALL sins.

    Believers are no longer judged by the law, which defines sin, but that does not mean they don't sin. When we do sin we do need to confess, so that God, who is faithful, can forgive our sins, and thus our close relationship with Him can be restored.

    1 Corinthians 3 tells us that our works will be judged. Jesus tells us that every branch which does not bear fruit will be cut off. Those are actually the same things, as it is in the nature of the branch to bear fruit, but once the fruit is started, the branch will then send off many shoots of new branches which will not bear fruit. If the fruit is to get the energy of the vine, these extra branches must be pruned off (and burned, as they will root just lying on the ground). Both passages refer to "If you love me, you will obey me" at their root. Are we going to build following the guidance of the Holy Spirit -- which will bear fruit -- or are we going to go off on our own, so sure that what we are doing is right, and take the energy away from the areas of our lives that will bear fruit? One way will see the burning of what we thought we had done and the other will see the rewards given for the obedience we all ought to have.

    But at no time will we 1) lose our salvation or 2) be judged by the law.

    We will be commended or not for our obedience, however...

    One last note -- the born again believer is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, by definition (see Romans 8). The job of the Holy Spirit is to raise up the believer and transform him or her to the image of Christ (Romans 8 again). He will not fail in this job (Phil. 1:6). So yes, we will be disciplined because we will sin. But, just as true, as time goes by, especially, we will desire less and less to do anything which would disappoint our Lord, and thus we simply don't want to sin.

    So it's not a matter of being able to get away with any sin a person wants who is a believer, but rather of finding desires contrary to God becoming less and less as the Holy Spirit does His work in us.
     
  16. LeBuick

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    Whoops, after reading my post I see I left my thoughts unclear. Helen is absolutely correct, we confess to restore our relationship with God and he is faithful to forgive. Whenever I think of a Godly man sinning I can't help but remember David. He committed Murder and Adultry at the same time. How much worse can we get? He showed us what to do in the 51st psalms.

    Psalms 51:1 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
    2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
    3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
    4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
    5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
    6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
    7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

    Now what would have happened to David if the preacher did not have the guts to confront the King and Judge about his crimes? We don't know if he would have ever repented of his sin.

    This tells me even though Helen is right about repenting being the means by which we restore a right relationship with God, what happens to our sins that we didn't realize we committed? Take the thread on pelvis thrust and let's say their actions are a sin. The dancers don't see it as a sin so we know they will not repent. Now what? Are they still God's children? Are they now going to hell or to the ghetto of heaven? Will they be the only ones in heaven with tears? Sickness?
     
  17. Helen

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    I think we all commit sins we are unaware of and others we do not think are sins. The Holy Spirit will show us, bit by bit, what needs to be corrected. How closely are we listening? How obedient are we? There will be no tears in heaven, but I'm thinking there will be a whole lot of humility!
     
  18. J. Jump

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    Unfortunately Scripture tells us that the work of the Holy Spirit is not as automatic as you claim it is. We have to allow the Holy Spirit to do His work in our lives. Some choose to allow Him to work and others choose to allow their flesh to continue to work.

    If every "saved" individual allowed the Holy Spirit to work in their lives and the Holy Spirit finishes His work then there would be no need to have a judgment seat of Christ, because there would be nothing to judge.

    The whole idea of a judgment seat is that there are some good and some bad. If there is any work that is wood, hay or stuble (which Scripture tells us there will be) that means that the Holy Spirit wasn't at work, but the flesh.
     
  19. J. Jump

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    We have to be restored to fellowship. So what then of the Christian that doesn't confess his/her sin and remains outside of fellowship with God then dies. That person's "fellowship" is just automatically restored because they died?

    That leaves us again at the why do I need to live a Godly life if I can live any ole way I want to on this planet and then when I die my relationship with God is "A" okay?

    That seems to be the issue that most of Christendom doesn't want to deal with. We all know what happens to a person that is living a Godly life. But the question is what happens to the person that isn't living a Godly life. And the consenus of Christendom seems to be to say that either that person lost their salvation and will be eternally damned in hell or that this person was never saved in the first place. Both of which are unBiblical, so the only thing we are left with is that there are "saved" people that are living like the world and their relationship will not be automatically restored at death and they will be given a just compensation for their works of iniquity.

    Their relationship will be restored during that time period and then when we step into eternity God will wipe away all tears and the endless ages will commence.
     
  20. Helen

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    J.Jump, we know that Romans 8:9 says that a person who does not have the Holy Spirit does not belong to Christ. We know that Philippians 1:6 says He is faithful to complete the good work He has begun in us. We know that Romans 8:28-30 tells us that good work is to conform us to the image of Christ. We know that Hebrews 12 tells us that we must be disciplined if we are His.

    I don't see where the question is!

    Here, on earth, in this life, those of us who are believers can be difficult children to raise or less difficult children to raise (I don't dare say 'easy'!). Some Christians have a very close fellowship with the Lord through prayer and obedience. Some Christians tend to be a little more independent and have to be disciplined more.

    When I was raising my children, they were all my children, but their personalities were so different that yes, I did have a closer, more comfortable relationship with some than with others. But the love was still there, always, and there was always, even in the teen years, some sort of fellowship we could all fall back on. My oldest son, for instance, is pretty laid back, courteous of others, and a lot of fun to be with. My oldest daughter is intense, focused, and yet still very concerned about others. Both grew up to be fine adults, but very often my oldest son and I had a more relaxed fellowship type of relationship than I had with my oldest daughter AT TIMES. I am very close to them both now. My oldest son was like living on a beach and enjoying the sunny days. My oldest daughter was an adventure, like living next to a live volcano! People are different. But those of us who are believers are still His, despite our differences. However He does have to work with those differences and so some simply, in this life here on earth, do not have the close relationship to their Father that they might have.

    In addition, close relationship or not, we sin, and sin is disobedience -- rebellion. That breaks the closeness of the fellowship with God until we admit our sin and go back for forgiveness. We are never NOT His once we are born again, but we are not always in close fellowship, either.

    What is judged where the believer is concerned is how obedient they were, which shows up in the works that were done. In Ephesians we read that there are works He planned and prepared for us to do. Are we doing them? Or are we running out on our own, doing our 'own' 'good works'?

    In a flock, some sheep stay close to the shepherd always. Some wander off -- almost always. Our Shepherd knows which are which and works with us all as needed.

    When I said fellowship was restored upon confession of sins, I spoke wrongly. Closeness of fellowship is restored. We who are believers and born again are always His. And like my grown children and me, once those teen years are past, we are quite close. Once this life is past and there is the new creation, even those who were harder for the Holy Spirit to raise will be raised successfully and be part of a very close relationship with the Lord God.

    You asked why you needed to live a godly life here if everything will be fine later. I am wondering how a born again Christian can even ask this. If the Holy Spirit is in you, you want to live a godly life. The main problem that I can see is that so many of us prefer our own definition of a 'godly' life rather than following the Holy Spirit, and thus have to be disciplined over and over again.

    If you look at Matthew 5:19, I think you will see that there are 'ranks' even in heaven, depending on what we do here on earth.
     

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