Old Testament Law

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Phillip, Feb 13, 2005.

  1. Phillip

    Phillip
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2001
    Messages:
    6,708
    Likes Received:
    0
    Do some of you feel the way I do, as described below, about the extensive law and legalism of the Old Testament for the Jews?

    I believe the MAIN reason for the law (besides the parts that just obviously show people right from wrong) is to show man that he cannot save himself by following the law. That it is so restrictive that he will fail. This leads up to Jesus Christ and salvation by grace.

    The Bible appears to devote so much to individual and specific laws for everything. It appears almot overly legalistic, but I feel the reason is to make it so difficult that no one can meet every single requirement. This is also the reason it was recorded for us today, to see that we also would not be able to follow it, therefore our answer is "grace".

    What say you?
     
  2. Daniel David

    Daniel David
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Messages:
    5,316
    Likes Received:
    0
    The law no longer has jurisdiction over anyone.

    It was only given to the Jews to begin with. Why do people think that since Christ came, the law expanded its influence to gentiles? That is laughable.

    Galatians 4 makes it crystal clear that the law was only in use until Christ came. Once he came, the law was done away with.

    The Holy Spirit is the convicting influence in the world today.
     
  3. Phillip

    Phillip
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2001
    Messages:
    6,708
    Likes Received:
    0
    I never said that the law had any jurisdiction past the Old Testament, nor did I say it applied to the Gentiles. What I did say was that God saw fit to leave it in the Bible in great detail so that we could see that we WOULD fail IF we were subject to the law.
     
  4. rjprince

    rjprince
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    1,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    Phillip,

    I agree. That was one of the key purposes of the law, to demonstrate the sinfullness of man and the inability of all men to live a righteous live that conformed to the Law. That is the point of Rom 3. Yet I also note that the Mosaic Law was never given to the Gentiles (of any age), only to the Jews.

    19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
    20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
    28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
     
  5. Phillip

    Phillip
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2001
    Messages:
    6,708
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thank you rjprince, yes, I too agree it was never given to the gentiles, except in the Bible so they could see what the Jews had to abide by.

    Thank you for the scriptures.
     
  6. StraightAndNarrow

    StraightAndNarrow
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2003
    Messages:
    2,508
    Likes Received:
    3
    I don't understand your statement about the law not applying to anyone given Paul's statement in Romans 6.

    Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
    Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
     
  7. av1611jim

    av1611jim
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2002
    Messages:
    3,511
    Likes Received:
    0
    1 Cor 10:1-15 illustrates what you guys are talking about I think.
    The law is our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. The things which happened to OT saints were left in the Scriptures to illustrate for us what we ourselves would do had we been there and to teach us a new and better way.

    In that respect then, the Law is still in force today, to demonstrate the total inability in us to live perfectly its tenents. It does not now, nor even then, justify a man, for it CANNOT.
    "The just shall live by faith."

    In HIS service;
    Jim
     
  8. Daniel David

    Daniel David
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Messages:
    5,316
    Likes Received:
    0
    StraightandNarrow, I don't think I understand your question. You seem to think that unless the Mosaic law is still around, people can sin all they want.

    Read the last line of my post.

    AV1611Jim, the law is not in force to anyone in any way anymore.

    The law wasn't my schoolmaster or yours. The law was THE schoolmaster until the Christ came and fulfilled it. That is a historical reality. The law ceased being a schoolmaster once Christ died.
     
  9. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    8,869
    Likes Received:
    3
    I believe what Paul says in several places and in several ways, and with the very words: "the Law is on pension / has retired / is jobless". His reference in every instance obviously and necessarily is to the 'moral' Law of the 'Old Testament'.
    There's no way to deny it, and no need to. In fact, there is the best of reason for it to be so, because after Jesus had come - through resurrection from the dead - HE IS GOD'S LAW in living person, and has become it very personally to every individual believer.
    So what's the issue? Who could possibly imagine he no longer is under the law of god because he is a Christian?
    Jesus radicalised the Law in his Sermon on the Mount. But if you think that was the ultimate of Jesus' radicalising the Law, you've got a surprise coming! For Jesus in the acme of his radicalising of the Law is Jesus Christ in resurrection from the dead. Behold the Law of God! Behold the Word of God Eternal! Behold The Law, the King, in Person! Lex Rex, Rex Lex!
    Now excuse yourself you're no longer under the power and rule and sway of the Law of God?
    It's beyond me!
     
  10. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2000
    Messages:
    17,527
    Likes Received:
    0
    Here is what the Bible says:

    John 1:15-18
     
  11. Aaron

    Aaron
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    15,646
    Likes Received:
    223
    The Law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. The Law was no more strict than it should have been, and Jesus was no more pious than He had to be to fulfill it.

    That a covenant based on works is doomed to fail was proved in Adam, not Moses. The Law is there to teach us our need for Christ.
     
  12. IveyLeaguer

    IveyLeaguer
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2004
    Messages:
    666
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree with that. Jesus kept the Law, fulfilled it, completed it, then was unjustly punished for every believer who is not able to keep it, which is 100% of us. Our individual, personal, inability to keep the Law was NAILED to the cross with Him, and our individual, personal, deliverance from the consequences of that inability was resurrected with Him. PRAISE GOD.
     
  13. Benjamin

    Benjamin
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2004
    Messages:
    4,878
    Likes Received:
    109
    I understand that salvation is by grace through faith, but I have a concern about:

    Because:

    2 Corinthians 5:10 (KJV)
    10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

    Romans 3:23 (KJV)
    23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

    Romans 10:14 (KJV)
    14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

    When the law was given, the Lord God that made all flesh, gave commandments, statutes, and the judgments. He said to Israel to keep the statutes and judgments, “which I teach you (Israel), for to do them”, Then He said unto the words of His commandments (civil laws) that they shall not be changed, added to or taken away from.

    Deuteronomy 5:31 (KJV)
    31But as for thee, stand thou here by me, and I will speak unto thee all the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which thou shalt teach them, that they may do them in the land which I give them to possess it.


    Deuteronomy 4:1 (KJV)
    1Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you.
    Deuteronomy 4:2 (KJV)
    2Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
    Deuteronomy 5:33 (KJV)
    33Ye shall walk in all the ways which the LORD your God hath commanded you, that ye may live, and that it may be well with you, and that ye may prolong your days in the land which ye shall possess.

    We are told to obey the civil laws (ordinances) also in the NT

    Romans 13:1 (KJV)
    1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
    Romans 13:2 (KJV)
    2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
    Romans 13:3 (KJV)
    3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
    Romans 13:4 (KJV)
    4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
    Romans 13:5 (KJV)
    5Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
    Romans 13:6 (KJV)
    6For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God’s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

    Romans 13:7 (KJV)
    7Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
     
  14. wopik

    wopik
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2002
    Messages:
    1,158
    Likes Received:
    0
    I disagree.

    Psalms 119 ---

    David said the law was a lamp unto his feet to guide his way (vs 105).

    David said the law made him smarter than all his teachers (vs 99).

    O how I love your law! it is my meditation all the day (vs 97).


    119:115
    Depart from me, you evildoers: for I will keep the commandments of my God.
     
  15. Archeryaddict

    Archeryaddict
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2004
    Messages:
    317
    Likes Received:
    0
    The law was given to the Isralites not to the Gentiles. Gentiles were never under the law, only Jews.

    the 10 Commandments were Given to All mankind Directly From the Lord God so that we May know what sin is, that we ALL have a sin nature, that we All Fall short of Gods glory, that we are All without excuse and that no matter how hard we try we cannot work out our salvation according to our own works.

    BUT GRACE
    PRAISE GOD FOR HIS AMAZING GRACE!!!

    Amazing grace! How sweet the sound
    That saved a wretch like me!
    I once was lost, but now am found;
    Was blind, but now I see.

    ’Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
    And grace my fears relieved;
    How precious did that grace appear
    The hour I first believed.

    Through many dangers, toils and snares,
    I have already come;
    ’Tis grace hath brought me safe thus far,
    And grace will lead me home.

    The Lord has promised good to me,
    His Word my hope secures;
    He will my Shield and Portion be,
    As long as life endures.

    Yea, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
    And mortal life shall cease,
    I shall possess, within the veil,
    A life of joy and peace.

    The earth shall soon dissolve like snow,
    The sun forbear to shine;
    But God, Who called me here below,
    Shall be forever mine.

    When we’ve been there ten thousand years,
    Bright shining as the sun,
    We’ve no less days to sing God’s praise
    Than when we’d first begun.


    When I begin to Doubt what I have in Jesus I can go to that old Bible and open it to the first page and see where I wrote down the day that I gave my heart to the Lord Jesus, no matter when I am weak and fall short according to those 10 commandments I have the Blessed assurance that My Lord Jesus paid the price in full by Him shedding his blood, dying, Placed in an old tomb and raised from the dead on the third Day to Give me Victory over Death Hell and the Grave and to Live in eternity with Him and Daddy.

    Glory Glory Glory to God in the Highest! \0/

    “Come and hear, all ye that fear God, and I will declare what He hath done for my soul.” Psalm
    66:16
     
  16. Daniel David

    Daniel David
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Messages:
    5,316
    Likes Received:
    0
    The 10 commandments were NOT given to gentiles. Read Ex. 20 again. The Lord gave them to those who he redeemed from slaver out of Egypt. Context people.
     
  17. blackbird

    blackbird
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2002
    Messages:
    11,898
    Likes Received:
    2
    So Daniel---I guess this means you can come over to my house and steal everything I've got---since "Thou shalt not steal" applies only to the Jews and not to us Gentiles.

    Get your "Cane Knife" out and hack somebody to bits and the Sheriff's Deputies can't do a thing because "Thou shalt not kill" does not apply to us in the Church age!

    Put the 10 Commands in context for us, Daniel and see what we come up with!!
     
  18. blackbird

    blackbird
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2002
    Messages:
    11,898
    Likes Received:
    2
    So Daniel---I guess this means you can come over to my house and steal everything I've got---since "Thou shalt not steal" applies only to the Jews and not to us Gentiles.

    Get your "Cane Knife" out and hack somebody to bits and the Sheriff's Deputies can't do a thing because "Thou shalt not kill" does not apply to us in the Church age!

    Put the 10 Commands in context for us, Daniel and see what we come up with!!
    </font>[/QUOTE]You put the 10 Commands in the CORRECT context---then draw a circle around that context---I believe you will be shocked to discover that Daniel David is in the circle!!!
     
  19. av1611jim

    av1611jim
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2002
    Messages:
    3,511
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't know where some of you folks get your information about the Law, but this is where I get mine. You will notice that the letter is to Roman believers. Both Jew and Gentile alike.
    I say again, the Law is STILL binding. Not FOR salvation, but to lead us to He who IS salvation.


    Ro 7:7
    ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
    Ro 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
    Ro 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
    Ro 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
    Ro 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
    Ro 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
    Ro 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

    There you have it.

    In HIS service;
    Jim
     
  20. av1611jim

    av1611jim
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2002
    Messages:
    3,511
    Likes Received:
    0
    I might also add that all of the Law is binding, for if you treat your ox shabbily, it is still sin.
    A little bit of common sense is required here of course. Obviously it is NOT sin to mix wool with polyester. But if you wear ONLY a polyester suit, that COULD be sin! Especially with "platform" shoes! [​IMG]


    In HIS service;
    Jim
     

Share This Page

Loading...