Old Universe/Recent Biosphere

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Paul33, Nov 3, 2004.

  1. Paul33

    Paul33
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    Here's a challenge to young earth creationists.

    The Bible doesn't teach that the universe was created only 10,000 years ago.

    The Bible teaches in Genesis 1:1 that the universe (including sun, moon, stars, planets, earth's core or foundation) was created out of nothing an indefinate period of time ago.

    Genesis 1:2 describes the condition of the earth's core in this initial creation (see also Job 38).

    Genesis 1:3ff teaches the recent formation of the earth's biosphere to make it inhabitable for life and man in seven literal days.

    This is not the gap theory.
    This is not the day-age theory.
    This is not evolution of any kind.
    No life, and therefore no death, existed before the seven days of God's work on the earth.

    This interpretation is consistent with the Hebrew.
    This interpretation is consistent with inerrancy.

    The universe, including the earth's core, may or may not be billions of years old. The age of the universe is undefined in the Bible.

    The formation of the earth's biosphere is recent and was accomplished by God in seven literal days.
     
  2. Paul33

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    The Biosphere Interpretation of Genesis One:
    A BIBLICAL SOLUTION TO STARLIGHT AND OTHER PROBLEMS

    by Gorman Gray - July 28, 1997

    The following translation (in blue italics) is a composite taken from many versions of Genesis chapter one including occasionally, helpful renditions from commentators.

    Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

    This is not a summary statement nor is it an introduction involving no actual creation (assumed to be done later). We are assured of this because the next verse launches into a description of the created earth which would not be possible if actual hardware had not been created, hence both heavens and earth were completed. To define heavens as "space" is a definition unknown to Scripture or any ancient dictionary. Of several biblical uses of the words heaven and earth, only two of each can apply to this opening chapter. God's definition in verses 8-10 refers to air and land and is a quite different meaning from David's definition of sun, moon and stars in Psalms 8 and 19 or Israel's use of "earth" in Exodus 15:12 (the earth swallowed Pharaoh's armies). Verse 1 must use the sun, moon and stars definition of "heaven"and the planet earth definition for "earth." God's stipulation of air for "heaven" and dry land for "earth" applies only after air and dry land were made on Days Two and Three.

    v2a Now the earth was barren and empty and darkness was over the surface of the ocean.

    Darkness did not permeate all of space but only the ocean surface of the completed planet earth. Job 38:9, a primary creation passage , explains that a cloud of thick darkness surrounded the newborn earth like a diaper/swaddling band and blanket surrounds a newborn babe. "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? ... I made clouds its garment and thick darkness its diaper" (swaddling band). Outside that blanket the heavens were radiant.

    v2b And the Spirit of God continues brooding over the waters.

    The brood metaphor tells of a time of waiting by God after the creation of sun, moon, stars and the basic earth, but before thinning the cloud of thick darkness allowed evening and morning on the first day. To witness the near motionlessness of birds at night while brooding gives a very compelling affirmation of this interpretation of a possible long time delay. Because it is God doing the waiting, the time could be of any duration. The purpose of the wait might be for our sakes to allow visibility of stars in real time. The solar system bodies give examples of primeval earth conditions. All are "tohu wabohu," that is, waste and empty today. Europa is ocean covered (although frozen). Venus is shrouded in a thick cloud of darkness somewhat like Job describes for earth. Venus may have a considerable amount of translucence but, neglecting that for our illustration, it has never had a first day in all of its megayears of existence. Earth lay in total darkness (unlike Venus' partial darkness) for an undefined length of time before the first day until God began to clear the envelope of thick darkness.

    v3-5 Then God said, 'Let there be light,' and there was light. God saw the light that it was good. And he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light 'day' and the darkness he called 'night.' And there was evening and there was morning--day one.

    At God's command, the thick darkness became translucent (although not transparent) on Day One. This was a normal solar day with a literal evening and morning.

    v6-8 Then God said, 'Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water.' So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. God called the expanse 'air.' And there was evening and there was morning--the second day.

    To define the "expanse" as "space" or anything except "air" would leave the biosphere with a conspicuous omission. Light is recorded, ocean, land, celestial markers, plants, animals and man are described but no air? This omission is unthinkable in an inspired record of the biosphere creation. The expanse is the air where birds fly (verse 20). The air was inflated between the ocean and the water cloud of Job 38:9.

    v9-11a Then God said, 'Let the water under the air be gathered together to one place and let dry ground appear.' And it was so. God called the dry ground 'land' and the gathered waters he called 'seas.' And God saw that it was good. Then God said, 'Let the land produce vegetation ...'

    Jonah says that Yahweh "made" the dry land, using the same word, (asah) that God used for making the greater and lesser lights and stars on Day Four. But the record plainly indicates that His "making" of dry land was accomplished by gathering waters into a sea to allow land to appear. This is important to help us understand the making of the stars on Day Four. Asah is translated 74 different ways in the KJV and means nothing until shaped by each context in which it is found.

    v14-17 Then God said, 'Let lamps in the expanse of the air be for separating the day from the night, and let them serve as signals to mark seasons and days and years, and let them be lamps in the expanse of the air to give light on the earth.' And it was so. God did two great lamps--the greater lamp to dominate the day and the lesser lamp to dominate the night--the stars also. God gave them forth in the expanse of the air to give light on the earth,'

    Many versions translate this verse, "And God made two great lights and the stars." That rendition "made" is tolerable but can be misleading. Jonah has shown that God can "make" something by simply uncovering it. On Day Four, God cleared the translucent blanket of obscuring cloud to transparency. It is impossible that God could "give the lamps forth" into the sky without clearing the cloud of Job 38:9. Day Four has nothing to do with the creation of sun, moon and stars but only initiating their function as seasonal markers by clearing the atmosphere to transparency. He "set in order" the celestial bodies, "brought forth," "accomplished" or "did" the lights on Day Four. God "produced" or "arranged" the sun moon and stars on Day Four. The word asah sometimes translated "made" has been translated 74 different ways in the KJV alone. It is a very loose word close to our English "did."

    v20 Then God said, 'Let the waters swarm with living creatures and let birds fly over the earth across the expanse of air.'

    This verse will not allow the expanse to be anything but air in this context. Exodus 20:11 For six days Yahweh worked on the air, the land and the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Because this verse references the six day period, it is required that we use the definitions provided by God Himself during those identified six days--the air where birds fly and the dry land. The stellar heavens and planet earth were created complete at verse one, perhaps long before the first day on earth. The "six days" recount the creation of the biosphere, which made the waste and desolate planet into a perfect home for man. The verb often translated "made" as "For in six days God made the heavens, the earth and the sea" is again, asah, with its multitude of possible translations. That amounts to waving a bundle of red flags against using this verse as a "proof text" of a mandatory young universe. The preposition "in" supplied, "For in six days..." does not occur in the original language. Hence a better translation is, "For six days Yahweh worked on the air, the dry land and the sea and all that is in them." "Work" is the subject of the fourth commandment. Of course this work was certainly a creation, but it is the creation of the biosphere that is the subject of the six days and Exodus 20:11. The galaxies were all completed in the undefined past at verse 1--not verse 16. We are forced to determine when God created the stellar heavens. Was it at verse 1, verse 16 or some other time? What would an unprejudiced reader conclude? Some readers may ask about Jesus' statement, 'From the beginning of the creation God made them male and female' (Mark 10:6). Some will insist that asah and bara are interchangeable instead of supplemental from Genesis 1:27. Many will have other questions. This web page has necessarily been limited in scope and detail. An in depth treatment of Jesus' statement and many other questions not touched upon here appears in my book, The Age of the Universe: What Are the Biblical Limits? (200pgs. 2000 Ed.) For information Email Gorman Gray or see www.ageof the universe.com
     
  3. Trotter

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    In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness covered the surface of the watery depths, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.

    Then God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light "day," and He called the darkness "night." Evening came, and then morning: the first day.

    Then God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters, separating water from water." So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above the expanse. And it was so. God called the expanse "sky." Evening came, and then morning: the second day.

    Then God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear." And it was so. God called the dry land "earth," and He called the gathering of the water "seas." And God saw that it was good. Then God said, "Let the earth produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit with seed in it, according to their kinds." And it was so. The earth brought forth vegetation: seed-bearing plants according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it, according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. Evening came, and then morning: the third day.

    Then God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night. They will serve as signs for festivals and for days and years. They will be lights in the expanse of the sky to provide light on the earth." And it was so. God made the two great lights--the greater light to have dominion over the day and the lesser light to have dominion over the night--as well as the stars. God placed them in the expanse of the sky to provide light on the earth, to dominate the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. Evening came, and then morning: the fourth day.
    (Gen 1:1-19 HCSB)


    Gee, Paul, seems that the bible is really, really clear about this. Four evenings, four mornings, four days.

    It kills me that those who try to denounce what the word of God says also try to limit God by declaring that He could not create an "aged" earth, one that already has grown plants, mountains, valleys, functioning ecosystems. Just makes no sense to me...

    In Christ,
    Trotter
     
  4. Phillip

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    Hey, Trotter, since I don't have a Bible that I can research close by, where is it quoted that the Earth and heavens were created in six days? I know it is quoted in at least one more place in the Old Testament, if not in the New? Someone help me please.

    If it says what I THINK it says, this shoots a hole right in the 'ole theory above. [​IMG]
     
  5. Phillip

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    I keep forgetting about computer Bibles. hehe

    Ex 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

    I think that should just about take care of Paul33's theory! [​IMG]
     
  6. Phillip

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    Ex 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
     
  7. Phillip

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    Since somebody must think that there is something wrong with the KJV (and I wouldn't have any idea who would think that) I will give another source. The English translation of the LXX that Jesus was thought to have quoted about 85% of the time:

    Ex 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heaven and the earth, and the sea and all things in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the seventh day, and hallowed it.
     
  8. Paul33

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    Read it again, boys.

    This verse will not allow the expanse to be anything but air in this context. Exodus 20:11 For six days Yahweh worked on the air, the land and the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Because this verse references the six day period, it is required that we use the definitions provided by God Himself during those identified six days--the air where birds fly and the dry land. The stellar heavens and planet earth were created complete at verse one, perhaps long before the first day on earth. The "six days" recount the creation of the biosphere, which made the waste and desolate planet into a perfect home for man. The verb often translated "made" as "For in six days God made the heavens, the earth and the sea" is again, asah, with its multitude of possible translations. That amounts to waving a bundle of red flags against using this verse as a "proof text" of a mandatory young universe. The preposition "in" supplied, "For in six days..." does not occur in the original language. Hence a better translation is, "For six days Yahweh worked on the air, the dry land and the sea and all that is in them."
     
  9. Paul33

    Paul33
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    Trotter,

    Do you even bother to read?

    Genesis 1:1 teaches that God created the universe and the earth's core or foundation.

    Please do a word study on "foundation" in the Bible. It is astonishing to see how many times the Bible says "the foundation of the earth."

    God created the universe and the earth's foundation in verse one.

    Genesis 1:2 reveals the condition of the earth at its initial creation! Read Job 38.

    The earth's core or foundation is completely engulfed in water! It is barren and empty. The Holy Spirit hovered or brooded over the face of the waters!

    God himself tells us what he worked on during the six days of making the earth's biosphere. He worked on the sky, the land, and the sea, and all that was in them. Read Exodus 20:11.

    Now do me a favor. Start with day seven in Genesis 1 and substract what God did on each day, going backwards. When you get to day zero, what do you have?

    I'll give you the answer. You have a land mass covered in water, surrounded by thick clouds, resulting in total darkness. The rays of the Sun could not penetrate to the earth's surface. There was no evening or morning because there was no light reaching the earth's surface. Nor was there any form of life. The earth's foundation was barren and empty just like Genesis 1:2 describes it.

    Read it again and this time do a better job of critiquing.
     
  10. Trotter

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    I have read it, Paul. Many, many, many times.

    You see, I take God at His word, not what I want Him to say.

    I, at one time, was a Christian evolutionist. I believed that God formed the earth and all life slowly through the big bang and evolution. But that takes God and makes Him a liar. I discovered that God does not lie.

    That might make sense if God were as limited as we are...be He's not. You can try to justify your reasonings all you want, but that will not make them correct.

    God created the heavens, the earth, light, and darkness on the first day. God divided the earth from the sky on day two. On day three, He brought forth dry land and covered it with plants and trees. God made the sun, the moon, and the stars on day four. Fish and birds were created on day five. And animals and man were made on the sixth day.

    What part of that do you not understand?

    Do you call God a liar? Or do you know better than He what He meant to say?

    In Christ,
    Trotter
     
  11. michelle

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    --------------------------------------------------
    I, at one time, was a Christian evolutionist. I believed that God formed the earth and all life slowly through the big bang and evolution. But that takes God and makes Him a liar. I discovered that God does not lie.
    --------------------------------------------------


    This is true. Also, what many people do not undersand or neglect to recognize, is that God is the giver of LIFE, not DEATH. Death did not come UNTIL ADAM AND EVE SINNED. For the penalty of SIN IS DEATH. In order to believe in any KIND OF EVOLUTION concerning creation, not only makes God a liar, but denigrates God's attribute, to which is the giver of life. The whole essense of creation evolution, MANDATES DEATH of a species, in order to EVOLVE the new, and this was impossible as sin did not yet come. This is contradictory to the truth of God and his character and attributes. Not only this, but it was the power of the WORD OF GOD being spoken that created ALL THINGS.


    Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  12. michelle

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    Also, if one believes the scriptures where it says:


    1 Cor. 15

    49. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
    50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
    51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
    54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory
    .
    55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
    56. The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
    57. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    58. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.


    If one can and does believe THIS truth, how then can you NOT believe the TRUTH in Genesis, concerning creation? What about ENOCH? The parting of the RED SEA? The raising of LAZARUS from the DEAD? Etc.? And, how is it these things were/are possible?


    Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  13. Paul33

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    Trotter and Michelle,

    I am taking God's word at face value.

    I do not believe in evolution or theistic evolution. Neither does Genesis teach that.

    There was no death until Adam's sin. I am in full agreement.

    Why don't both of you critique the interpretation instead of the "straw men" that you are offering.

    Genesis 1:1 is plainly stated in Scripture to be the creation of the universe, including our solar system.

    Genesis 1:2 describes the condition of the earth's foundation.

    The Holy Spirit brooded over the waters. How long did he brood? We don't know the Scriptures don't say!

    The earth's foundation and the universe are however old that they are. The Bible does not specify the age of the universe or the foundation of the planet earth.

    Genesis 1:3ff reveals the work God did in making the earth habitable for man. In six literal 24 hour days God fashioned the earth's biosphere and created life on earth!

    How can anyone call this interpretation evolution?
    How can anyone say that this interpretation advocates death before Adam?
    How can anyone say that this is not what is recorded in Scripture?

    If this interpretation is wrong, show me from Scripture?

    What does Gen. 1:1 mean? You tell me.
    What does Gen. 1:2 and Job 38 mean? You tell me.
    What does Gen. 1:3ff and Ex. 20:11 mean? You tell me.

    Trotter, I believe in inerrancy. I believe in God's Word. And I take him at his word. That's why your knee-jerk reaction is so offensive.

    Deal with the text!!!!!

    Not your opinions!!!!!
     
  14. Paul33

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    How in the world did you folks come up with the idea that this interpretation is evolution?

    Read my original post, please.

    I said:

    "This is not the gap theory.
    This is not the day-age theory.
    This is not evolution of any kind.
    No life, and therefore no death, existed before the seven days of God's work on the earth.

    This interpretation is consistent with the Hebrew.
    This interpretation is consistent with inerrancy."

    Discussion is absolutely useless if you can't deal with the original post accurately.

    Trotter and Michell, would you like to try again?

    This time deal with the text and the interpretation that I have presented, please!
     
  15. Charles Meadows

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    I doubt you'll get very far here with that one Paul. You might be better received over in the "other religions and doctrine" forum.

    Trotter and Michelle take the Bible at face value - and I don't think they can be faulted for that. But I agree with you that the Bible probably did not intend to say how long ago the earth itself was created - I think that probably misses the point of the creation account.
     
  16. Trotter

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    You are correct, Paul. The scriptures do not say how long God moved/hovered/brooded over the face of the waters. So what gives you the right to try and tel anyone that you have the answer?

    The entire account of the creation is divided up into days, "And the evening and the morning were the first day." The entire account. So, where do you get off trying to insert "Paul's Official Interpretation" over and above what the context is saying?

    I have heard this stuff before. It was a load of malarky then, and it is a load of malarky now. You say that it is not the gap theory...OK, how is it not? Says the same thing, does it not?

    God set down His story of creation because no one else was there to witness it. Therefore, His is the only eyewitness report we have. He did not spell out that He took a break between speaking matter into existance and forming it into creation as we know it.

    You can claim that the bible doesn't say He didn't, and I'll agree with you. But, following the context, I can say that the whole of creation (universe, foundation, and all) took a total of six days...not six days after an unspecified period of hiatus.

    In Christ,
    Trotter
     
  17. Bro. James

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    It sure looks old to me--

    The big disagreement about time is because we(mankind) think that since we can measure time to the femtosecond that we can also measure billions of years with micrometric precision.

    That is not true. Our estimates of the age of something have changed many times since the so called Age of Enlightenment. Our age formula has too many constants that are not constant and assumptions which are skewed. Consequently, the answers are variable and skewed.

    The paradigms of the old earth and the young earth are so far apart that only divine intervention can resolve the matter.

    "Let God be found True and every man a Liar."

    Selah,

    Bro. James
     
  18. Marcia

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    Just because you find a list of different meanings for "asah" does not mean the word can mean anything you want it to. Meaning is derived from context. It's translated as "made" for a reason. Plus, that word is not always used. Sometimes God just says and it's so.

    Considering that God knew people over 2,0000 years ago would hear/read these words, God knew they would take this literally. I think God meant what he says and would not use the term "days" for people who would take it literally unless it was so, as God would not mislead anyone. No one then would think these "days" meant long periods of time. God could have just easily have said that each part of creation took many years or many ages or whatever. But he didn't.
     
  19. Paul33

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    Trotter, I think, is following the argument now.

    Marcia, you still don't get it.

    The interpretation does not advocate long periods of time for each day.

    Each day in Genesis is a literal, 24 hour day. The interpretation that I have presented from Gorman Gray admits and agrees with this definition.

    Trotter,

    It is not the gap theory because the interpretation does not adocate any form of life before the six days of making the earth's biosphere. Therefore there were no animals, preadamic races, death, etc. There was no life before God made the earth's biosphere!

    This is not the gap theory!

    I TAKE THE BIBLE AT FACE VALUE!!!!!

    The Bible says the "Holy Spirit brooded over the face of the deep!"

    I agree with the literal words of the Bible!

    God created the universe and the planet earth in Genesis 1:1. Planet earth was in pitch darkness, surrounded by water and thick clouds (Job 38).

    THIS IS THE WORD OF GOD. You can read it for yourself! NO CHANGES! This is what it says.

    How long the earth remained in pitch darkness, without light from the sun penetrating the earth's surface is unknowable to us. The Bible does not say.

    There was no first day until God allowed light to filter through to the earth's surface! This is exactly what Genesis 1 describes.

    Subtract each day's work from day seven backwards and you end up with Genesis 1:2! If that's not true, tell me why!
     
  20. Paul33

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    Trotter,

    The thread says Old Universe/Recent Biosphere. I should have said, Indefinate age for the Unverse/Recent Biosphere, but that took too many words.

    I apologize. What I am saying, and I think you agree, is that the Bible doesn't say how long the Holy Spirit brooded over the face of the deep.

    But you are wrong to say that Day One encompases verses 1 and 2. It doesn't. Verse 3 starts with "Then God said . . ." Read again Job 38 and compare it to Genesis 1:2.

    Thanks.
     

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