Omni Presence of God, and the Incarnation

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by TP, Jan 2, 2005.

  1. TP

    TP
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    Greetings,

    In our discussion on Mary, the Mother of God, one of the posters wisely made a comment I have never heard before so I thought it would make a good discussion. Here is what was said:

    "One of the attributes of God is His omnipresence. A god that is not omnipresent is not God. God the Son, being fully God, is obviously omnipresent. Therefore, God was never localized to Mary’s womb. God never “passed through” a birth canal."

    I am hoping that this will NOT be about Mary's title, but about the incarnation. I God localized in Jesus Christ? or Not?

    My first inclination is that the Divine Son sacrificed his Omnipresence. Phil 2:5-11-- Though he was in the form of God, he did not deem equality something to be grasped at. Rather he emptied himself and too the form of a slave, being born in the likeness of me.

    However, one of the quatlities of Divinity IS omni-presence. OR was the omni-presence continued through the Holy Spirit, and the Father, as the Son came into history. They are one God.

    Last concept: Christ could have been omni-present in divine Being(existance), however, his PERSONHOOD resided in Jesus Christ Locally. Remember, personhood is a theological term. It is the WHOness of Jesus(Not his WHATness). My understanding would be that the Divine Person was located historically, and uniquely with in the Historical Jesus. Jesus did NOT have a Human Person, so the Divine Person would be locally placed.

    Any comments to this dilemna.

    peace
     
  2. Walguy

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    In His Incarnation the Word did indeed voluntarily accept limitations by assuming a physical form subject to death. However, that is not the issue here.
    God is one. There are three persons in the Godhead, but only one God. It is completely accurate to say that Mary was the mother of Jesus, because that is our name for the Son of God who was born human and mortal. To say that Mary was the EARTHLY mother of God the Son would also be accurate. On the other hand, to say Mary is the mother of God the Son or the mother of the Word would NOT be accurate or proper, since those terms refer back to His eternal pre-existence as the only begotten Son of God the Father. And it is EXTREMELY inappropriate to refer to Mary as the mother of God, since THAT word used alone and unqualified usually refers to the entire Godhead, and thus by necessity confers divinity on one who on the basic level was a mortal sinner like the rest of us, but who was also special enough to qualify for the unique job of God the Son's earthly mother. That is what the Bible tells us. It does NOT tell us that she herself was sinless, or that she has been raised above other mortals through being Jesus's mother, especially to the point of being able to hear the prayers and requests of people still living on earth.
    Mary is worthy of our admiration and respect as a person for who she was and what she did. But she was still human and imperfect, just like the rest of us, and does NOT deserve anything resembling worship (whether a particular person or Church calls it worship or not).
     
  3. TP

    TP
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    Greetings,

    I was hoping to keep the conversation to the incarnation in general. Was God in some way localized in the person of Jesus christ, or did the omni-presence of the Son Continue.

    If you would like to discuss the title mother of God, there is a thread doing that currently, but please read what was already said.

    peace
     
  4. billwald

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    Jesus revoked his omnipresence at the incarnation. He is "seated at the right hand of God."
     
  5. Hamtramck_Mike

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    Sorry, you are mistaken. Jesus revoked nothing at His incarnation. He was still omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent! Praise God!
     
  6. North Carolina Tentmaker

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    That reminds me of a question my 7 year old asked about God being omnipresent.

    She asked, "If God is everywhere does that mean he can see his own eyeball without looking in a mirror?"

    I think we are probably to old and educated to answer that question.
     
  7. Walguy

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    I think it's pretty clear that the limitations the Word accepted were confined to His mortal life. Post-Resurrection He was able to materialize in locked rooms and generally appear wherever He wanted whenever He wanted and do whatever He wanted. He retained the physical body, but that body was glorified and no longer subject to physical limitations as it had been during Jesus's mortal life.
    Mary was the mother of that mortal Incarnation. She was not the mother of the Word in His entirety, and certainly not the mother of God in His entirety. 'Mother of Jesus' is a VERY wonderful title, and Mary deserves our great respect and admiration, but no moreso than any other person who God used greatly to further His Kingdom. I do not in any way intend to denigrate her by saying she should not be called 'Mother of God.' I am simply acknowledging the reality about Mary that is revealed in Scripture.
     
  8. Paul of Eugene

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    Christ was omnipresent for all time and space prior to the incarnation. Following the incarnation he was ALSO localized in time and space, but HIS PREVIOUS STATE as OMNIPRESENT in all time and space MEANS that His presence was there even in that time He was incarnated in all spaces! But he was ALSO incarnated and there in that sense, as well.
     
  9. Matt Black

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    Whilst the Godhead is omnipresent, the Second Person of the Godhead was not during His Incarnation; I believe the doctrine of kenosis as expounded by Phil 2:6-9 covers that

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  10. Archeryaddict

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    that is a question I will have to ask Him when I pass into eternity because I have absolutley no doubt No one can answer that question, and I dont care to speculate.
     
  11. Michael52

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    :confused:

    Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

    I change not; being the same today, yesterday, and forever; he changed not in his divine nature and personality by becoming man; he took that into union with him he had not before, but remained the same he ever was;
    [John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible] italics added

    Can the Second Person of the Godhead forsake His divine nature, even temporarily, and still be God? Certainly the Word's human nature may have been limited from all the fullness of the divine attributes. But, I don't understand how the eternal God the Son "became" less than God.
     
  12. billwald

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    Jesus was resurrected in the same kind of body that we will be resurrected in.
     
  13. Matt Black

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    :confused:

    Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

    I change not; being the same today, yesterday, and forever; he changed not in his divine nature and personality by becoming man; he took that into union with him he had not before, but remained the same he ever was;
    [John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible] italics added

    Can the Second Person of the Godhead forsake His divine nature, even temporarily, and still be God? Certainly the Word's human nature may have been limited from all the fullness of the divine attributes. But, I don't understand how the eternal God the Son "became" less than God.
    </font>[/QUOTE]I believe the text I quoted settles the matter. Clearly Jesus, being fully Man as well as fully God, could not be omnipresent but was limited in time and space by the physical boundaries of His human body; nor was He omniscient (Mark 13:32). So that's two of God's 'unchangeable attributes' gone for starters in the Incarnation...

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  14. Doubting Thomas

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    I think the "mechanics" of the Incarnation (which of course includes what actually took place during or is meant by kenosis) is ultimately a mystery.
     
  15. BobRyan

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    You are right TP - God the Son "emptied himself being found in the form of a man" and "did NOT regard equality with God a thing to be clinging too" Phil 2:6-7 EVEN Though "He existed in the very FORM OF GOD Himself!" initially -- Christ willingly chose to empty Himself "yes-- really" to be INCARNATED (not PROCREATED as the RCC implies with the title Mary Mother of God).

    It is BECAUSE of that - that Christ says "The Father is greater than I AM".

    It is BECAUSE of that that Christ says "I go to My God and your God".

    It is BECAUSE of that that Christ can say "I can do NOTHING of my own self".

    If is BECAUSE of that that the first real "sin" Christ was tempted to do in Matt 4 was to use God-powers to CREATE life from stone as ONLY God can do -- yes that is REAL Abiogenesis! (atheist evolutionists not withstanding).

    Christ shows HIS HANDS STILL have the scars - the holes even AFTER the cross. This is very much God the Son "choosing" to retain a localized form as a sign and reminder to all creation of His great sacrifice in the plan of salvation.

    Yet God the Father and God the Son are "one" which means that Christ knows fully the mind of the Father and in that sense could certainly be omnipresent - still.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. Hamtramck_Mike

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    Of course He can! Do not forget, He made every quark of every atom of every molocule in that eyeball! At least ours, anyway! ;)
     

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