On Abortion...again.

Hello again

Your interpretation of this passage is incorrect.


Here is the NIV translation, I will break it down verse by verse

Exodus 21:22-27
]22 "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise"

Verse 22 "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows."
Otherwise, ONLY if the baby is born and there seems nothing wrong with it (unharmed) the husband decides the penalty. Maybe it's as simple as the wife walking right into a brawl, and it was an accident so he decides to let it go without a penalty.


Verse 23 "But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life"
Life for Life. If the baby/fetus or mother dies, then the perpitrator must die also. Simple


Verse 24-25-"eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise"
Example: if the baby is born blind in one eye, the husband ensures the perpitrator is blinded in one eye. Baby is born with a broken leg, then the perp is also to have his leg broken etc...The Husband must follow these commands.

So he can't "choose" death as you say. He follows the Lords commands except when the baby is unharmed. Then he has some leverage to decide the penalty.

And there is no distinction upon any penalty being based upon the fetus/babies development. The Lord views an unborn baby as human life.


Joe

 

My demeanor is not the subject of this thread. The subject is how can we twist the Bible to fit our troubled conscience as we cast a vote for politicians that are enablers of the murderous craft of killing unborn children.

But sense you brought it up;

Ecclesiastes 3:1-8
1To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: 2A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; 3A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; 4A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance; 5A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing; 6A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away; 7A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak; 8A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

This is one of those times that hate is justified.

 

I take issue with the NIV being called a "paraphrase". It is clear you don't understand that concept of what a paraphrase entails...so how can you understand something so complex and detailed as when life begins?

 

Quit playing the martyr

As to your stance that "compared to the NASB the NIV is a paraphrase", you are still dead wrong. Please study the difference between dynamic equivalence and formal eqivalence. Both are translations, not paraphrases. Guess which one the NIV falls under?

I stand by my statement...if you don't know what constitutes a paraphrase, you have no business telling us what constitutes life.

 

I haven't said that I am voting for him. Again, the subject of this thread is how can we twist the Bible to fit our troubled conscience as we cast a vote for politicians that are enablers of the evil craft of killing unborn children.
I hate this intrinsic evil that is prevailing in this ever increasing culture of death. A religion of Life has within it's sacred body the advocates of the death of the most innocent of our society. Satan is truly leaping with joy. Why even he twisted scripture to tempt our Lord to sin. He is here and he is playing the same game.

 

NASB translation doesn't change anything regarding the main issue though.

The unborn is considered human life, equal to an adults life.

What is the penalties in this situation pertaining to an adult?

According to the NASB, the Lord's punishment is death. Though we know the punishment cannot exceed the crime (God's standards) so we're back to an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth if either the unborn baby or it's mother is harmed.

You commented babies don't have teeth yet. Incorrect. Our son was born with at least two VERY SHARP teeth.

 

Unfortunately, not a lot of love is shown by Christians on this board way too often, auburnhale. And vicious name-calling is practically a cottage industry on this Christian board. :tear:

 

First, as to your Exodus passage most of it is a red herring. Just one comment, however. There is a Biblical principle taught in the Bible. It is the more light that one has, the more responsible he is; or the more accountable to God he will be. Thus in our society today, with all the light that modern science we have, we will be far more accountable to God than those of the OT, who did not have our technology and could not tell for sure when they were even pregnant (no pregnancy kits, etc.). They did not have all the biological knowledge of the human anatomy that we have. The more knowledge one has, the more accountable they become, and they are accountable to God for what they do with that knowledge. It too is a gift from God.

You are responsible for the knowledge that you have.
We have the knowledge when life starts. It starts at conception. Both the Bible and any dictionary will tell you that. Thus to abort life is to kill; to take away life after the point of conception. We are accountable for the knowledge that we have.

Now it is apparent that you did not address my post #72, but rather simply glossed over it and gliby said--Oh, yeah; I've seen all that stuff before.
Maybe true. That attitude says that you haven't been able to refute it.
A sperm cell isn't a tree cell.
An egg or ova isn't a plant cell. There is no comparison.
Both the sperm and ova contain life in and of itself, and the life of a human is created when the egg is fertilized by the sperm. That doesn't happen with a tree, does it? The fertilization of human egg does not compare to the pollenization of a tree. They are apples and humans.

The Bible does speak of abortion; but never from a Christian point of view. It speaks of the killing of children which is not much different than abortion. Herod ordered all children two years and under killed when Christ was an infant. The Pharaoh ordered all male infants killed at the time of Moses, even as they were being born. This was indeed abortion. Moses mother put Moses in an "ark" when he was but 3 months old--too big to hide him any longer.

Exodus 1:16 and he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the birth-stool; if it be a son, then ye shall kill him; but if it be a daughter, then she shall live. (ASV)
--The Pharaoh commanded these mid-wives to abort these infants.
Yes, abortion did take place in the Bible, but never in a favorable light.

Now answer my question, that you ignored:
At what point in the womb of Mary did Jesus lose his deity?

 

auburnhale said he wouldn't post here anymore, so I'll probably STILL not get an answer to my question..... You told DHK you couldn't respond to 30 posters at once. But ah, you DID post a response to my post--even quoted it--but rather than answer the specific question I asked, you chose to deflect the questions and instead respond with reasons why it's "okay" to abort....even implied why an abortion "should" be performed. And yet you did NOT answer my question in that post that specifically wanted to know WHY you could arbitrarily say that LIFE "begins" at 11 weeks in utero....when at SEVEN weeks, it clearly states that there is a heartbeat, after previously using the LACK of a heartbeat to prove NO LIFE in a corpse. If you could just answer THAT question, honestly and fully, perhaps I could at least understand HOW it is you really justify your attitude about killing babies.

Of course, you never answered my question about QUALITY of life that I asked in this thread AND another one--you want to talk QUALITY of life as a determining factor for justifying abortion???? My question on THAT is---what QUALITY of life must exist before the life is "worthwhile" or "valuable" or "acceptable"???? Should my five-year old grandson with a chromosomal defect--who may or may not ever talk or live a "normal" life because we don't know the full extent of any mental retardation at this point--should HE have been aborted when my step-daughter "had the chance"?? Me just typing up a laundry list of the things he has "wrong" with him and mentioning all the "normal" things he will never be able to do doesn't fully convey the QUALITY of HIS life....it doesn't tell you that he is happy and plays and loves his family....and that everyone who comes in contact with him loves HIM and is changed in a positive way for having known him. A list of all the POTENTIAL problems he may have in his less-than-perfect, could-have-been-aborted life does NOT justify overriding God's desire for that boy to be born. I could not love him more if he was "normal".....do YOU believe he was a mistake and that my stepdaughter was wrong to allow him to be born into this cold, cruel world?

I have a niece who is bipolar. She's had all kinds of problems through the years (mostly from trying to get her meds right).....some of them have been pretty severe. THAT pregnancy wasn't "planned"....should my sister have aborted her because it wasn't "convenient" for her and perhaps that lack of convenience caused her to not be a "perfect" mother providing a "perfect" environment? My niece was suicidal at one time---but you ask her NOW whether or not she's glad she's alive---and there's no question that she's GLAD to be here and thankful for her life.

And, I've been going through a tough time lately--emotionally and physically. Neither of my parents were really "ready" to have a baby when I came along--should they have gotten rid of me to prevent this pain I'm experiencing now? As hard as these last months have been, I know God has me here for a reason and I'm thankful for this life.

I have no natural children of my own--God chose instead to bless me with stepkids and stepgrandkids and nieces and nephews and the children of friends. I love children at every age.....I deal with the "consequences" of their lives and problems up-close and personal every day..... You said, "I don't know that I believe that EVERY conception is God's will simply because I don't see how it could be God's will for an innocent baby to suffer that harshly in life", but I tell you that even if it were possible for life to exist outside of God's Will, I don't KNOW which ones of them were or were not "God's will" .....and since I don't have that omniscience, I think I'll stay out of the business of possibly THWARTING that Will...and err on the side of caution. Abortion, at the very least, flies in the face of the concept of TRUSTING GOD.

 

It's probably my fault Auburn has left. I did write something about being idiotic or insane, which probably wasn't nice of me. So I apologize for any offense I've caused.

 

Good post Hopeful, and thanks for your defense for Life. :thumbs:

 

Hey, here is an idea. Lets take a time machine back to say May 1981 when you are an embyro and put you through the procedure since you are just an embyro and not alive.

 

All the blessings of heaven to you and your family, my Brother. Life is precious in God's eyes. You and Hopeful have made a great team throughout this thread. :thumbs:

 

Stand true Don, I have been very straight forward for defending life. I don't think that William Wilberforce had to apologize for his heated debates against slavery. Nor do I recall that Ann Frank or Corey Tenboon apologize for their protection of Jews in Nazi Germany. These cases are times in our history where, living, breathing, people with families that loved them, had jobs and businesses but were taken like animals for use as beasts of burden. In Germany they were not worthy of life so were gathered up to be gassed and then incinerated.
Waver not for the defense for life. For at life's most innocent stage, is the battle front that we should not retreat from.

 

Even when God commanded it in the Old Testament when he told the Israelites to kill everyone - including women, some of whom were surely pregnant?

 

Ummm, Ken...
If the women were killed, it was not abortion. God did not command them to remove the fetus and make sure it was dead.

Besides, when God commanded whole communities of people be killed, He did so because of their evil. They were unwilling to serve Him and follow His commands.

Every thing God does is just.

 

The embryo has blood in it. The Bible says the life of the flesh is in the blood.