On Free Will...

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by pinoybaptist, Jul 20, 2002.

  1. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
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    Excerpts from the writings of Elder W.S. Craig, reproduced from Primitive Baptist Faith and Practice:(Part One)
     
  2. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    If God did not give human beings a free will, He would have made Himself the Author of evil more especially in the life of every sinner. Since He controls their destiny He must make sure that they arrive at their appointed destiny. With no free will they have no venue of escape from final destruction.

    If the Christian comes to believe that he or she does not have a free will, it is only one half step to believing that they are not responsible for their sins and that in fact God made me do it.
     
  3. KenH

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    Man is absolutely responsible for his own sin and can blame no one else, no other being, and certainly not God, for it.

    Ken
    The Happy Calvinist :D :D :D :D
     
  4. KenH

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    I am thankful to God that He gives a new heart to His people so that we can willingly and lovingly seek Him and obey His will.

    "Nothing in my hand I bring,
    Simply to Thy cross I cling"

    Ken
    A Happy Calvinist :D :D :D :D

    [ July 20, 2002, 10:51 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
     
  5. Ray Berrian

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    Ken Hamilton,

    Your view attributes everything that happens in the world and among people to be governed by the sovereignty of God. Christians who sin are not fully responsible because they did not have a free will to not commit sin. They were bound to commit all of their sins. You can't just use sovereignty when it sounds good for 'the cause.'
     
  6. Renewed

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    No. For someone who truly understands the concept of complete sovreignty, it drives you to your knees in thankfullness and praise for Him rescuing you from the bondage of sin and saving your sorry self from the lake of fire.
    It is a step to beliving that God alone is responsible for anything and everything you do that is not sin and glorifies Him.

    R
     
  7. KenH

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    Ray,

    I take full responsibility for my sins. When I sin, it is because I want to sin, I will to sin. Even my good works are tainted by my sin. My Father does not make me sin. To my own shame, I do it.

    My salvation is because God did it - all of it. He provided it, He brought it about in time in my life, and He will preserve it for all eternity. He gave me a new heart while I still live in my sinful flesh. He made me a new creation in Christ. He gave me the "want to" to serve Him, as poorly as I do in my sinful flesh. I claim none of my salvation, from start to finish, as being of my doing. I contributed nothing from my sinful flesh - not repentance, not faith, not perserverance. I give God all of the credit for anything with the least bit of good in my actions and thoughts. I shoulder all of the blame for every bit of the wickedness from my heart on out through my thoughts and actions.

    I would never, ever make the claim that God caused me to sin. So please, I beg of you, do not say that I would do such a thing.

    Ken
    A Happy Calvinist :D :D :D :D
     
  8. Ray Berrian

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    Ken Hamilton,

    I agree with all of your post except the one sentence in the middle of the paragraph.

    I believe that repentance, faith and perseverence are my responsibility and my response to His call to salvation and eternal life. Repentance takes place when a sinner turns from his or her sin, because of the convicting and convincing Agency of the Holy Spirit.

    The reason you cannot believe the above sentence is because you have been taught that the agency of man is a misnomer.

    Even though some/much of a Christian's good works are tainted with sin, yet we try humanly to please our Lord Jesus.
     
  9. Aki

    Aki
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    ...and so goes your will over God's sovereignty.

    Once again this idea from me.

    many people blame theselves for their spiritual death, yet this is no less than ignorance of the real issue in life. the truth is, God does not wait for somebody to sin to condemn him. What God does is impute Adam's original sin on that somebody, thus causing the spiritual death of that person. thus he is spiritually dead because of God's sovereignty.

    while Calvinists give emphasis on God's sovereignty in salvation, it should be noted that God also applied His sovereignty in condemning man, not giving each born soul the chance to commit their first personal sin before condemning him. rather God sovereignly get him to be depraved by imputing the original sin on him.

    also, having said these, man does not become spiritually dead because he sins. rather he sins becuase he is spiritually dead, as God caused it.

    now Calvinists are so happy and greatlful that God in His sovereignty chose to save a certain number of people. but when we consider that it is God's act of imputation of the original sin to everyone that got everyone condemned, what would that make Him in causing the condmnation of those whom He does not choose to save, if it is to be called grace for the salvation of some?
     
  10. KenH

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    If there had not been a first Adam whose sin was imputed to all of his people, there could not have been a second Adam whose righteousness is imputed to all of His people.

    Ken
    A Happy Calvinist :D :D :D :D
     
  11. doug44

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    maybe im off my rocker but hearing Calvinists embrace the idea of Christians having a free will is laughable. Where is the free will? if only the "elect", as Calvinists interpret the scripture, are able to be saved.
     
  12. Pastor Larry

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    You are off your rocker [​IMG] ... Every calvinist affirms the free will of man. In fact, we affirm the free will of man just as we do the free will of God. A free will is free to do anything in accordance with its nature. Just as God cannot freely act outside his nature, so man cannot freely act outside his nature. In fact, free will of this sort is a part of the image of God in man.
     
  13. doug44

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    how can you have free will though if it's believed that only an elect are to be saved? thats not free will...free will means we all have a choice to accept or reject the salvation of Christ...i prefer recliners over rockers by the way [​IMG]
     
  14. KenH

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    Everyone who hears the gospel either repents and believes or he doesn't.

    By the way, you have heard about that incident in the Garden of Eden where man died spiritually, right?

    Ken
    A Happy Calvinist :D :D :D :D

    [ July 22, 2002, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
     
  15. tyndale1946

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    Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

    15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

    16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

    17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

    18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

    Here is free will for all those who want it!... The Calvinist and The Primitive Brethren know without the righteousness of Jesus Christ which they can't accept/reject on their own that they are wretched... miserable... poor... blind... and naked. They now see their lost, pitiful, and wretched condition with the eyesalve of grace and know what they are by nature and abhor their condition. They also know what they are by Gods saving grace and put their Eternal Salvation in Christ hand whose righteousness will cloth them and hide their nakedness... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  16. Ray Berrian

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    I think many of us Arminians believe most strongly in God's Providence in our lives and in the lives of all Christians. 'The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord; and He delighteth in his way.' Often we try to direct our lives in particular ways/directions and yet we cannot always move in the areas that we wish. God controls our lives, our going out and our coming in. God is sovereign.
     
  17. Pastor Larry

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    Didn't you read my whole post? I explained to you the only legitimate way that free will can be defined, IMO. I don't see how free will can be the choice to do anything at all unless we are going to say that God is less than free. Are you saying that? Do you believe God has free will?
     
  18. doug44

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    i appreciate your thoughtful responses Pastor Larry....i would further appreciate it if Ken would stop making moronic comments in an weak attempt to be funny..."By the way, you have heard about that incident in the Garden of Eden where man died spiritually, right?" (Ken's words) humility is a virtue Kenneth....
     
  19. doug44

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    Pastor Larry...by the way..of course God has free will...He can do anything as he chooses..and one of the things He chose to do was give us the free will to accept Him or reject Him.... He gives us the liberty to exercise the freedom to choose salvation or reject salvation....and no we can't save ourselves..It's only by God's Grace, the sacrifice of His son Jesus Christ that we are saved.
     
  20. KenH

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    Seems I just can't win with the non-Calvinists. If they get in a corner, then I should be nicer. If I try to lighten up the discussion, then I am called moronic. :confused:

    Oh, well. I guess we'll have to settle for boring discussions with no banter going on. [​IMG]

    Ken
    A Happy(and Serious) Spurgeonite [​IMG] :( [​IMG] :(
     

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