Featured On Reformation Day

No one is saying you HAVE to honor Luther.

What I am telling you is that your REASONS for your REFUSING to honor Luther are deficient.

They are deficient first of all because you say he did not move far enough from the Catholic Church so you will not honor him. Well, that's like saying, "The founding fathers did not move far enough toward freedom because they still owned slaves, and though they CHANGED THE WORLD and brought an almost UNPRECEDENTED FREEDOM to it, I don't care, I will not honor them!!"

If we do not honor imperfect men then we will never honor ANY man- including our fathers (yes biological- I am not making any leaps from biological to forefathers- I am simply saying God obviously is not against honoring imperfect men) whom God says in one of his Ten Commandments to HONOR.

The founding fathers were not perfect but every American ought to feel obliged to be thankful for their courage, sacrifices and ideology which was uncannily progressive for their time. We appreciate them for what they were in their CONTEXT. And since we daily draw from the well of freedom they dug out for us with their own battered hands- decency demands we honor them.

You may agree with this point. You said earlier that Independence Day does not mean anything to you so far as remembering and being thankful for the men who MADE US INDEPENDENT- but I cannot help but think you really do appreciate them and remember them on Independence Day. You AT LEAST admit that you honor Veterans on Veterans Day and Memorial Day.

So, here's the thing. Luther did more for you than the founding fathers of America. He took on a mightier empire, introduced more controversial ideas, broke the back of a much greater form of bondage which held many more people in its iron grip, and his accomplishments brought the Word of God and the God of the Word to the people and we have had free, unabated access to them ever since.

Even the founders have said, "It is impossible to govern a people apart from God and the Bible." Even THEIR deeds stood upon the shoulders of Luther's.

But Luther was very imperfect- like you and me. But we honor him in his context.

And if a man celebrates Independence Day- he is rather hypocritical not not celebrate Reformation Day.

You DON'T HAVE TO.

You just OUGHT to.

So your reasoning for not honoring Luther is deficient because it is based on imperfections of his which had much to do with his context much like our founding fathers' imperfections had to do with their context but both they AND Luther brought EXTRAORDINARY light to the world that still shines upon our faces. To be thankful for it- to remember fondly what they did for us is appropriate.

But secondly, your reasons for refusing to honor Luther are deficient because they are inconsistent.

You honor men who have done less for the world than Luther and then say you only honor Jesus so you will not honor Luther.

Well, that is extraordinarily inconsistent.

 

Found it: II Helvetic 24:4

"we do not approve of feasts instituted for men and for saints. Holy days have to do with the first Table of the Law and belong to God alone. Finally, holy days which have been instituted for the saints and which we have abolished, have much that is absurd and useless, and are not to be tolerated. In the meantime, we confess that the remembrance of saints, at a suitable time and place, is to be profitably commended to the people in sermons, and the holy examples of the saints set forth to be imitated by all."

 

I think if you'll look back at your first post in this thread you'll see that your reasoning at least SOUNDED like you refused to honor Luther because he did not come out of the Catholic Church enough.

I actually agree that he did not go far enough. But I am able to appreciate men who accomplish great things from which I daily benefit even if they were very imperfect- especially in light of their historical context. If we have not done more in our context, which you and I haven't, then we ought to admire what he did in his.

We employ fireworks on Independence Day to signify the bursting of bombs our forefathers endured as the price for our freedom.

A DAY is not something to honor. People make days what they are. We honor the PEOPLE that make the days what they are.
.

So did every other great human being in history- especially our founding fathers.

I thank God for Wycliff, Huss and all of those who by the power of God made the Reformation possible.

Yes, well then Thomas Jefferson is no authority on independence. By that standard nobody is any authority in anything.

Yes, the solas existed before Luther just as the principles and ideals of freedom existed before our founding fathers. But we are thankful for their place in history as those who dug them up out of the heap of error in which they had long been buried and gave them back to the world.

 

You guys seem to be talking past each other with an ambiguity with the word
"authority".

Luke is expanding on the definition in the sense of saying:
"Stephen Hawking is an authority on Big-Bang cosmology."
or
"Albert Einstein was/is an authority on physics."
(by which, he means "expert".)

John, is not trading on the same meaning:
He is denying that Luther is an "authority" in the sense of clerical authority; or eldership within the Church. In that sense.....Luther is, in no way an "authority" as in, has proper power or influence into anyone's beliefs or faith.

 

Let's enjoy this moment. This is what debate is all about. We discussed this thing until we came to a general accord on the issues we discussed.

We both honed our understanding of these matters.

We were both wrong in some of the things we said but we kept talking those things out until we learned how to think right about them.

I was absolutely WRONG on the Romans 13 passage and you did not yield until I got it. EXCELLENT!! God bless you!

It got heated in places which is ok. It takes heat to bend and refine and purify most metals.

Here is what I suspect. We both moved a little in the right direction on this matter from where we stood at the start.

THIS... is what baptistboard ought to be about.

 

This is what baptistboard ought to be all about.

This is why debate is such a good thing.