Once Saved always Saved

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Eladar, Sep 14, 2001.

  1. Eladar

    Eladar
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    I agree with the premice that the elect can't be taken away from God. I disagree with how this concept is being applied.

    In all of my study I don't see where this doctrine is explicitly mentioned. I can see where someone may understand that this is what the scripture says, but if you look at the scriptures that is not what it is saying at all.

    What I am asking is where in the Bible (KJV or whatever) where the concept of a person declaring himself saved, and therefore that person is always saved. Where in the Bible does it say that the elect will know that they are the elect. As far as I have read, only God knows who these people are.
     
  2. Don

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    Your question deserves an entire dissertation. However, I'll try to keep it simple.

    Once saved, always saved ultimately falls back to something God Himself in the flesh promises us.

    John 10:27-28 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any pluck them out of my hand.

    Simply put, if you are a child of God, "neither shall any pluck you out of His hand."

    Some say that no, no one can pluck you out of His hand; but you can jump out. This is false. The phrase is "neither shall any." If you can pluck yourself out, then someone can pluck you out of God's hand. This necessarily makes Jesus, God Himself, a liar. And we all know that's not true.

    There really is more to this. To discuss it in depth, we need to understand what we're talking about when we talk about those that have "lost" their salvation; it requires an understanding of the parable of the sowing of the seed, and its relation to the last two verses in Hebrews 10.

    But for the moment, it's as simple as this: Is God a liar? If not, then someone who is a true believer--is in His hand--can never be plucked out.

    Hope that helps.
     
  3. Eladar

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    I don't believe that people can jump out of his hand. I just believe that unsaved people attend church. Why they do it may be for social reasons, or perhaps they're heart is shallow dirt or is full of weeds. In either case, those that fall away were never the elect. They just thought that they were.

    That is the way I understand the scriptures say.
     
  4. Brother Adam

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  5. Eladar

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    Here are some things from your site that I have problems with:

    Christ loves us, He interceded on our part and has saved us, and He is not about to lose us.

    So are you saying that he doesn't love those who aren't saved?

    Once we are saved must we continue to work out our salvation? The answer is no. After we are saved by grace through faith nothing else must be done to secure our salvation.

    Works do not save. We don't have to do anything. It is the Christian heart that wants to do good works. The fruits reveals the heart. If you do good works you may be saved. Some people do the good works for men, in which case they are not saved. Those who do the good works because they want, not because they think they ought to, are the ones that are saved. It is impossible for man to see the heart, so it is impossible to judge good works.

    But the lack of good works is a definite sign that a person is not saved.

    Good works is not something a saved person needs to do, it is just something a saved person does.

    In our souls, we know that we are saved and those who are saved know that they cannot continue in sin.

    Where in the Bible does it say this. Matthew 7:21 says the exact opposite. Those people thought they were saved, but they weren't. "Not all who say to me 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven."
     
  6. Michele

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    Since I am new to this I hope you will all bear with me while I learn to have online discussions.Saw the "once saved always Saved" and am enjoying reading your comments. I have questions about this too so I am putting all your scripures together to help me understand this subject.I know that I am saved,but have always thought that a person could make the decision to walk away from God if they wanted to do,which is something I don't want to do. Saved
     
  7. Don

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    Explanation for "works": Ephesians 2:10. We ALL know Ephesians 2:8-9, but often overlook the very next verse which tells us that we are saved UNTO good works.

    Explanation for "not all who say lord, lord": The parable of the sowing of the seeds, Hebrews 10:39, and James 2:9.

    Hebrews 10:39 seems to be misleading: We are not of them who draw back unto perdition. It sounds like we're being told that people can "lose" their salvation. But look at the rest of the verse: "but of them that believe to the saving of the soul."

    Are you one who draws back to perdition? Or do you believe to the saving of your soul?

    See, the problem that we run into is this concept of "believing." John 3:16 tells us that all we have to do is believe, and we shall be saved. But guess what? James 2:9 tells us that even the devils believe. So it's not just a simple "I believe," and you're saved. There's more.

    And that's where the parable of the sowing of the seeds comes in. We're told of 4 types of seed in this parable, and each seed represents a type of person.

    Some of the seed was immediately gobbled up by the birds; these are the people that reject Christ outright.

    Some of the seed fell among rocks; these are the people that know about God, but refuse to believe in Christ (the "rock" could be likened to "hardening of the heart).

    Some of the seed fell among thorns; this represents the people who go to church, sing the hymns, etc., but when "tested," they turn away from God. They believe the same way the devils believe, but they don't believe to the saving of their souls. These are the people that are mentioned in the first part of Hebrews 10:39--those that fall back into perdition.

    And finally, there's the seed that grew good root, and reproduced a hundredfold. These are the people that truly believe to the saving of their soul, and their works reflect it.

    How does this fit in with "once saved, always saved"? Those that believe to the saving of their soul are the sheep that Christ has told us hear His voice. Those that believe to the saving of their soul are the ones that are in His hand, and can never be plucked out.

    Hope that doesn't confuse the issue much.
     
  8. Eladar

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    Here is how Jesus explained the parable of the Sower:

    Matthew 13:18-23

    Hear then the parable of the sower.
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    ""When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road.
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    ""The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
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    yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.

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    ""And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.
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    ""And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.''

    So, as you can see, Jesus says that people who have a heart like the stones, do indeed believe and accept God. It is just that they don't have the roots to withstand persecution.

    I would also like to point out that the seed grows in both the rocky soil and and weed infested soil. Both types of people accept the truth, they are just not of the elect.

    [ September 14, 2001: Message edited by: Tuor ]
     
  9. Brother Adam

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    "Here are some things from your site that I have problems with:
    Christ loves us, He interceded on our part and has saved us, and He is not about to lose us.

    So are you saying that he doesn't love those who aren't saved?"

    **No- where did I say this? The topic isn't even discussed in the essay. Isn't that presumptous? God loves everyone and I never said that he didn't.**

    "Once we are saved must we continue to work out our salvation? The answer is no. After we are saved by grace through faith nothing else must be done to secure our salvation.

    Works do not save. We don't have to do anything. It is the Christian heart that wants to do good works. The fruits reveals the heart."

    **I don't understand? Where are we disagreeing here?**

    "But the lack of good works is a definite sign that a person is not saved."

    **No- it is merely evidence but not proof (or definite evidence). Like you said we can't judge.**

    "In our souls, we know that we are saved and those who are saved know that they cannot continue in sin.

    Where in the Bible does it say this. Matthew 7:21 says the exact opposite. Those people thought they were saved, but they weren't. "Not all who say to me 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven.""

    **Again I am confused- what are you disagreeing with? I'm not touching on the topic of hypocrites in my essay either. I'm saying that those who ARE saved KNOW that they are SAVED. If you need me to find the scripture passages on this doctrine let me know.**

    Hope this clears things up.

    Until Next Post,

    Adam
     
  10. Don

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    Tuor, I think we're saying the same thing.

    Both of those can be compared to the devils, who believe and tremble--but are not saved, because they do not believe to the saving of their soul.
     
  11. Chris Temple

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tuor:
    I agree with the premice that the elect can't be taken away from God. I disagree with how this concept is being applied.

    In all of my study I don't see where this doctrine is explicitly mentioned. I can see where someone may understand that this is what the scripture says, but if you look at the scriptures that is not what it is saying at all.

    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    "Once Saved, Always Saved" is better called the Preservation of the Saints. It is held to by most Baptists, although illogically, as many deny the other points of Calvinism.

    It is well described by Dr. Philip Ryken of Tenth Ave. PResbyterian church:

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> God has promised two blessings of salvation for the elect. First, he has promised to keep them forever, and never to forsake them. Second, he has promised to work within them so that they will never fall away from him. Both blessings are expressly promised in Jeremiah 32:40: "I will make an everlasting covenant with
    them: I will never stop doing good to them, and I will inspire them to fear me, so that they will never turn away from me."

    The fifth point of Calvinism is the Perseverance of the Saints. God has promised to preserve the elect. Once they are saved they are preserved, kept, and guarded by God himself (Ps. 37:28, 2 Tim. 1:12). He
    will never leave or forsake the elect (Ps. 94:14; Heb. 13:5). Jesus promised that he would never cast out any who came to him (John 6:37). The elect are kept in the same way in which they were saved, namely, by the invincible power of God (1 Pet. 1:5). Jesus says, "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of my hand” (John 10:28-30). The elect are eternally secure in the hands of both Christ and the Father. God keeps them safe from Satan (1 John 5:18); "the Lord is faithful, and he will strengthen and protect you from the evil one" (2 Thess. 3:3).

    It is true that on occasion the elect slip and fall into sin. But when they do, God catches them and makes them stand again (Rom. 14:4; cf. Deut.33:27). Even when the elect let go of God's hand, God's hand does not let go of them: "though he stumble,
    he will not fall, for the Lord upholds him with his hand" (Ps. 37:24).

    The elect will always be saved because they were eternally elected by grace (Rom. 8:29-30). Christ will not lose even a single one of those who were chosen (John 6:39). The Bible reasons that if Christ loved us
    enough to die for us, then surely he will do as much to keep us saved (Rom. 5:9-10; cf. 8:32). "Once saved, always saved.” God's gifts and God's call are irrevocable (Rom. 11:29). When the elect are irresistibly drawn to Christ and regenerated by free grace, they are sealed by the Holy Spirit as a guarantee that they will always belong to God (Eph. 1:13-14).

    Scripture also says that one must remain in faith and obedience to advance to heaven. Only those who persevere to the end will be saved (Matt. 10:22, 24:13). But the glory of it all is that the elect most certainly shall persevere to the end. Christ is both the author and the finisher of our faith (Heb. 12:2). The perseverance of the saints depends on the perseverance of the Savior.
    The true believer has received a new nature in regeneration, which guarantees that he will not live in permanent, perpetual unbelief and disobedience (1 John 3:4-10). The doctrine of eternal security excludes
    the possibility of a regular life of sin for true believers. How? The elect persevere because God perseveres in them. God has promised to finish what he began in the elect (Phil. 1:6). He will preserve the elect and glorify them in the end (Rom. 8:30; 1 Cor. 1:8-9). God perseveres with us, keeping us from falling away, which we would certainly do if he were not with us. But because he perseveres we too also persevere.
    In fact, our perseverance is the ultimate proof of our election. We persevere because God preserves us from full and final falling away from him.

    What about those who "fall away" by apostasy? They were never saved to begin with. Had they been true Christians, they would have persevered and been preserved (1 John 2:19). The fifth point of Calvinism
    teaches both the preservation and perseverance of the saints by the sovereign grace and power of God. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Reformed Theology

    [ September 14, 2001: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]
     
  12. Eladar

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    FlyFree,

    "Once we are saved must we continue to work out our salvation? The answer is no."

    I took this to mean that we didn't need to continue in our good works once we are saved. What I believe about good works I said earlier.

    "Christ loves us, He interceded on our part and has saved us, and He is not about to lose us."

    My point here is that Jesus loves the damned too, yet He is about to lose them.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Where in the Bible does it say this. Matthew 7:21 says the exact opposite. Those people thought they were saved, but they weren't. "Not all who say to me 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven.""

    **Again I am confused- what are you disagreeing with? I'm not touching on the topic of hypocrites in my essay either. I'm saying that those who ARE saved KNOW that they are SAVED. If you need me to find the scripture passages on this doctrine let me know.**<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I understand those people to be misguided people, not self aware hyopcrits. These people believe they are going to heaven, but they are not. Jesus calls them hypocrits because he sees them for what they really are. These people I believe will be genuinely surprised when they are rejected.

    Which brings me back to my original point: Where in the Bible does it say that the elect will know who they are? How are we to know if we are truely the elect. As far as we know, we are either rocks or weed ridden. In this society, I would be willing to bet many of us are caught up in the weeds. "the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful."

    How many of us are caught up in the deceitfulness of wealth? This part convicts me every time I read it. To tell you the truth, it is really beginning to sink in. Try to get this through the skulls of your average pew sitting individual. What greater snare is there than the deceitfulness of wealth? This is a warning from Jesus Christ himself. This warning the elect will heed.

    Don,

    I find your spin on the parable of the Sower as a testimonial without scriptural support. Nowhere does Jesus say this is because they were inferior in their initial beliefs. Jesus says that the stone and the weed ridden initially believe, but then fall away. The Biblical reason is that they were not of the elect. That much is for sure, but to say it was because soley because they didn't believe correctly is a bit condescending. How many people believe in Jesus for their salvation, yet fall out of the church? It happens all the time. There has got to more to it than that.

    Chris,

    "What about those who "fall away" by apostasy? They were never saved to begin with. Had they been true Christians, they would have persevered and been preserved (1 John 2:19). The fifth point of Calvinism
    teaches both the preservation and perseverance of the saints by the sovereign grace and power of God."

    I agree, yet how are we to know that we will not fall away? If we do, then we are not of the elect. If we don't, then we are. Until the race is over, how do you know?

    [ September 14, 2001: Message edited by: Tuor ]
     
  13. DocCas

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    Salvation is either of God or of man. It is either by grace or by works. If by grace it must be all of grace and if by works it must be all of works for the bible says that you cannot mix works and grace. Romans 11:6.

    So, if you are trying to add works, even the work of not walking away from Christ, you have nullified grace and it is no more! My advice is accept the grace of God and that alone without mental reservation for eternal salvation. [​IMG]
     
  14. Eladar

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    Thomas,

    Either you are misinterpreting the scriptures or Paul is totally screwed up! Read on to verses 13-15.

    But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
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    if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.
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    For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

    It sounds to me like Paul is saying that what he is doing might help save some of his countrymen. Paul then says that if they accept Jesus they will be bringing life from the dead.

    As I said, either Paul is contradicting himself just a few verses later, or your interpretation is faulty.
     
  15. Eladar

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    I thought I'd give my interpretation of that what Paul is saying in Romans 11:6

    We are saved because of Jesus' sacrifice. There is nothing else that saves us. It is God's grace that saves. All of us sin, therefore all of us deserve death. But God gives grace to thoughs who believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and have accepted Him as Lord of their lives. Not because of anything we have done or not done, it is simply because of what is living in our hearts. What is living in our hearts is not us, it is God. Therefore to take credit for something that God has given us is sheer foolishness.

    It is the God filled heart that wants to do good works. It is impossible for man to see the heart, so it is impossible to judge good works. The lack of good works is a definite sign that a person does not have God in his heart.

    This is my understanding of grace and good works. I believe it to be Biblical. If you see a conflict with what I believe and the Bible, please post the passages.
     
  16. Eladar

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    I guess the true question is how do we know if someone is truely saved. If a person falls away, then he/she was never truely saved, they only appeared to be saved.

    So I guess I am asking how do we know we are truely saved and not apparently saved.

    The rock and the weed ridden are only apparently saved. This means it would appear as if they were saved, but they're not. How does an individual know he/she is truely saved and not just apparently saved?

    Please give me verses, not just testemonials.
     
  17. Chris Temple

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tuor:
    Chris,

    "What about those who "fall away" by apostasy? They were never saved to begin with. Had they been true Christians, they would have persevered and been preserved (1 John 2:19). The fifth point of Calvinism
    teaches both the preservation and perseverance of the saints by the sovereign grace and power of God."

    I agree, yet how are we to know that we will not fall away? If we do, then we are not of the elect. If we don't, then we are. Until the race is over, how do you know?

    [ September 14, 2001: Message edited by: Tuor ]
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    One area where Baptists have erred greatly is in the high priority they place upon assurance. Now don't get me wrong. I believe in the blessed assurance of the Holy Spirit toward the believer; but that is just the point. It is the work of the Holy Spirit to assure the believer of their salvation . Too many times evangelists want a decision for Christ made and then immediate assurance is granted. This is often portrayed in tracts which say "Congratulations! If you have faithfully said this prayer, you are now a Christian." This is not how one is assured. In fact, according to Jesus' parables of the seed on fallen ground, assurance cannot be acquired until one's faith is tested.

    2 Peter 1:10 says "Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble". Each of us should live to make our election sure. Of course that does not mean to struggle everyday with "Am I elect, or not? Am I saved or not?" If you have repented of sin, turned to Christ as Lord and your only hope, and do not live as you once did, you can be assured of your salvation.

    Nevertheless, I'd rather have a church filled with regenerate members unsure of their own salvation, than a church filled with assured pagans.
     
  18. Eladar

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    Chris,

    I am just trying to clarify things here. Are you saying that I am on the right track? If so, are you saying that my viewpoint would be in harmony with a Calvinist's viewpoint?

    I am sure that I have the desire to serve God, I am not sure that my actions always show it. One thing for sure, my walk is in much closer harmony with the Bible today than it was a year ago. I can see growth and areas in which I can grow. Hopefully this will never change. [​IMG]
     
  19. ellis

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    This is an area that has always troubled me. I think the use of the phrase, "Once saved, always saved", may be a little bit simplistic to describe this doctrine. It has always been confusing to me.

    I gather than many Baptists separate themselves from the Calvinistic teaching of "irresistable grace" on this issue by saying that Calvinism focuses on grace being irresistable to the elect, which means that salvation can't be resisted, and Baptists focus on irresistable grace after salvation, meaning that it can't be lost.

    One of my college professors resolved this for me by giving me a list of scripture references which very clearly seemed to teach that you cannot lose your salvation. Resolved, that is, until I read a book by an author who took the other view. I was a little relieved to discover that this is an ongoing controversy, Arminianism versus Calvinism, that has been going on since the reformation, from which I had been shielded in a church that just held one view. However, I am still bothered by two questions:

    1. If you can lose your salvation, then isn't your motivation to serve God tainted by a fear of getting left out of heaven because you might do something (or not do something) which would leave you out?

    2. If you can't lose your salvation, then isn't your desire to serve God tainted by the belief that backsliding (for lack of a better term), and selfish use of time and resources really have no effect on your ultimate spiritual destiny? Doesn't that subtract from both the quality and quantity of your committment to service?

    And an additional mix into the questions has come from an agnostic co-worker in the past couple of years who points to this very argument as evidence that the Bible is hopelessly unclear in its teaching, and that this (and many other) divisions in Christianity is proof that it is just another man made religion and we can't hope to know who God is, if there is one. Of course I don't believe that at all, but it puts me in a difficult position because I don't really know how to address this issue.

    Thanks for all you have posted here, and I look forward to seeing what else comes up here.
     
  20. Eladar

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    ellis,

    My understanding of this issue is this: Your agnostic friend was right about this argument being of man, but not about Christianity.

    My understanding is that a Christian should want to serve God. This should be a Christians number one concern. Why should we want to serve God? It is because God is in our heart. This is the reason for doing the work of God, because God is in us. No other reason is a Godly reason for good works.

    Only those people who are looking for a reason to or not to do God's work point to the Arminean or Calvinist view of salvation. "I don't have to because..." vs "I need too because..." both of these because are wrong. The because is God, not the affect it has on our one way or the other.

    I believe Titus 3 is a warning from God about such devisiveness.

    Others look at us and see our sinfulness and judge Christianity by it, but in the end, God's will be done.
     

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