Once saved, always saved??

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by HeLeft9941, Aug 3, 2004.

  1. HeLeft9941

    HeLeft9941
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    Before I state my question, I want EVERYONE to know that I am not out to start a debate here. I am merely trying to understand, to gather information.

    I was raised Baptist and my boyfriend was raised Church of God. We were discussing the differences in theology one day and came across something that made me think.

    For him, there is no such thing as once saved, always saved, that you can lose your salvation. We also noted that the term 'once saved, always saved' means different things in our minds but we didn't completely agree on the matter.

    For me, once you are saved, you are God's child. Yes, you will make mistakes, yes, you will fall, but you are God's child. Just as when you make mistakes towards your earth father, that doesn't make him stop being your father. Now, if you are living in continual sin, using 'salvation' as your free ticket, I would have to question if your conversion were real. But I don't believe that you can lose your salvation.

    However, this is what I've been taught. I haven't studied this matter. I haven't looked at it for myself. Now, I am in the process of investigating. I would love to have opinions. I DO NOT want debates, merely opinions, which preferably have scripture to back it up. I have found interesting verses for both sides and would love to hear what you guys think. I want to know what I believe for what I believe and not just for what I've been taught.

    Would anyone like to go on an adventure with me?
     
  2. dianetavegia

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    John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. 30 I and My Father are one."
     
  3. rufus

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  4. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    You are correct in your understanding.

    All Christians believe in the eternal security of the believer. Just read Romans 4 very carefully and see what kind of faith Abraham had that justified him.
     
  5. Johnv

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    You bring up an excellent point, and that it percieved definition.

    Here's how I understand the issue: Once we receive the gift of salvation, the Lord will not take it from us (otherwise, it wouldn't be a free gift). In that sence, once we're saved, we're always saved. Nowever, add to that, I believe that a person can discard the gift of salvation after having received it. For example, if a person who is saved later decides that he no longer believes Jesus is the Messiah and Saviour, then that person has freely chosen to reject the gift that was freely given him. In other words, we can't lose our salvation, but we can give it back.
     
  6. dianetavegia

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    I do not believe someone who is REALLY saved could 'unbelieve'. These people are inhabited by the Holy Spirit!

    1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
     
  7. Daniel David

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    John, you couldn't support that idea with anything more than a perversion of Scripture.

    Salvation is more than a gift. It is a new way of life, a new nature, a new course in life, etc. Your easy believism is evidence that people are just not getting taught biblical truth.
     
  8. HeLeft9941

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    Guys, please don't argue over this. I asked for opinions, EVERYONE's opinion. I don't want this to turn into a debate or people to be afraid to post their opinions because they're afraid of what someone might say. Please, help me make this a safe place. I want EVERYONE's opinion. This is a safe place. If you feel you need to argue, please move it to another post.
     
  9. Charles Meadows

    Charles Meadows
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    HeLeft9941,

    I think we'd all agree that if Christ lives in a person his/her life should manifest Him. We've all encountered the individual who responds to an altar call but who is back to his/her own sinful ways within a month. The question is was this person saved to begin with!

    Most Pentecostals have their roots in Wesleyan Holiness traditions - very Arminian theology. Thus your boyfriend's position is not surprising. Opinions have varied over time with many of the earlier church fathers not favoring eternal security! The pendulum began to swing with the Reformation.

    I personally believe that the indwelling of the Spirit is a dynamic thing - one that is not lost since it is a change in the very being of the person. Thus my view is that while many who claim to have been "saved" are really lost - but those who have truly accepted Christ will never lose salvation.

    [​IMG]
     
  10. Daniel David

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    Again, carefully read Romans 4 and consider the kind of faith Abraham had.

    A person who believes that salvation can be lost or given back or whatever, is a person who is trusting in HIS own ability to not lose his salvation. I thought Christ was to be the object of faith?
     
  11. Johnv

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    I would tend to agree. But we don't always know a person's heart.
     
  12. HeLeft9941

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    Does anyone have any more scripture? Opinions are wonderful things but I want to base my belief on something firm and not just on what others think. I appreciate everyone's comments and thoughts on this matter!
     
  13. natters

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    The "New Testament": the name comes from the new way of salvation, through Christ's blood, which is the new "covenant" - both words are used interchangeably.

    When we are saved, we enter a testament (coventant), with God. Like all covenants, its participants remain bound by the covenant as long as both keep the requirements of their end of the covenant. Christ will always be faithful to the covenant, he will never break it. We, however, have the ability to - that's what makes it a covenant in the first place.

    Any scripture in the NT that mentions "covenant" or "testament" is a good passage to read for more insight into this.
     
  14. GrannyGumbo

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    When someone comes to me & says you can lose your salvation, I always ask, "well, exactly which sin will cause this?" They never answer.
     
  15. GODzThunder

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    I never understood why some groups make Jesus an indian giver. He gives until he sees that we didn't earn the right to keep it (we never earned the right to have it to begin with) so he takes it away and gives it to someone more worthy.

    We are sinners before salvation, we are sinners during salvation, and will be sinners long beyond that salvation experience of being on your knees crying out to Jesus. The difference is that we now have a Spirit that urges us to live right.

    Now here is a good question. What about the parable of the sower and the seeds?
     
  16. GrannyGumbo

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    Another thought: We are saved by faith. Once we are saved, we stay saved by the power of God, whether we believe it or not. (1Peter 1:5---2Tim 1:12---Jude 24---2Tim 2:13; all from the kjbible).
     
  17. natters

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    GrannyGumbo said "When someone comes to me & says you can lose your salvation, I always ask, "well, exactly which sin will cause this?" They never answer."

    Maybe that's because any specific sin doesn't cause you to loose your salvation. Sin can be forgiven, and the covenant remains intact. Like in a marriage (another covenant), any particular action in and of itself does not break the covenant, but someone may choose to break the covenant because of actions that took place (or didn't take place).
     
  18. Eutychus

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    Good point, GranyGumbo. I was wrestling with this topic some 18 years ago when I abandoned a denomination that taught ultimate salvation was up to the individual. I left, not because I had come to disagree, but because of the evidence of the logical conclusion of such a belief; a never ending, ever changing set of standards of thought, dress, and conduct; a lack of forgiveness of the repentant wounded; a constant critical spirit of others - of measuring one another against themselves instead of Jesus. But I only came to understand its root cause much later.

    While I was coming to grips with the doctrine, something that I thought I had settled decades earlier, the essence of the doctrine of conditional salvation occurred to me:
    Saved by grace, kept by works.

    That realization shook me to my very foundation and opened my eyes to understanding scripture differently. Even as an ardent Arminian, I knew that there is no place for man to glory in salvation. To do so is to steal God's glory and to elevate man.

    I used to be adept at posing questions from scripture that I thought would blow Calvinists away. Little did I perceive that they studied and weighed those same scriptures. It's amazing that when you read what the Bible says and not what you want to make it to say, you get a different understanding.
     
  19. Artimaeus

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    Everlasting Life lasts forever or it isn't everlasting.
    Eternal Security is eternal and secure.
    You can't get unborn again. If you can't get unborn from the first time you were born as Nichodemas was apt to point out. Then what in the world would being unborn again mean. Once you were born there is absolutely nothing anyone can do about undoing that. Once you were born again there is absolutely nothing anyone can do about undoing that. There is no hint in scripture about being born a third, or fourth, or fifth time.

    Matt 7:23
    John 3:1-7,36
    John 4:13-14
    John 10:28
    John 11:25
    John 17:2
    Acts 10:47
    Acts 13:38
    Rom 3:20,24,28
    Rom 4:1-8
    Rom 8:1-39 ...35
    I Cor 2:14
    I Cor 3:1
    Gal 2:16,21 (All of Galatians really)
    Gal 3:1
    Gal 3:16
    Gal 5:4
    Heb 6:18
    Heb 7:25 (All of Heb 11)
    Heb 13:5
    I Pet 1:5
    I Pet 2:24
    I John 1:7
    I John 3:14
    I John 4:4
    I John 5:1
    I John 5:10
    Jude 24
    Eph 1:7
    Eph 1:13
    Eph 4:30
     
  20. natters

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    dianetavegia said "I do not believe someone who is REALLY saved could 'unbelieve'" and later GODzThunder said "What about the parable of the sower and the seeds?"

    Here's my answer to both:

    Luke 8:12
    Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
    13 They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
    14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of [this] life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
    15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep [it], and bring forth fruit with patience.

    The first group hear but do not believe and are not saved.
    The second group receive the word and believe it for a while, but fall away.
    The third group believe and stay saved, but are choked by worldliness and are unfruitful (leading no one else to Christ).
    The fourth group believe and stay saved, and bring forth more fruit, their seed producing many others (leading more to Christ).
     

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