Once Saved, always saved

No, that makes it acceptance of a gift.

 

If "the law" says "do this" that implies a choice, don't ya think? </font>[/QUOTE]it implies that we are responsible to God, it is something of a paradox that simply means that we are held accountable for what we do even if we are a slave to sin we will be judged as the sinner we are. unless God shows mercy on who He has chosen, then the others will be shown justice.
sorry but it is like this&gt;&gt;Rom 9:16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

 

if that was the case the gospel certainly would not be good news

 

Michael Wrenn said:

Yes, the Light IS Christ, and the world rejected Him, but that does not change the fact that the Light of Christ is still in everyone.

False assertions are not facts.

 

Michael Wrenn said:

I explain it the way Romans Chapter 2 does. Those who have not heard the Gospel will be judged on the use they make of the light they have.

The whole point of Romans 1-3 is that all men, with no exceptions, are under condemnation for sin.

What you are saying is that even though God hates idolatry, if an idolator is an especially good idolator, God will accept him. That is absurd and contradictory to the jealous nature of God revealed in Scripture.

Makes a lot more sense and is more in accord with God's mercy, love, and other attributes than with the belief that all those millions who never heard of Christ will burn in an eternal hell.

Another false premise. Those who go to hell do so because they are sinners, not because they never heard of Christ.

massdak adds:

if that was the case the gospel certainly would not be good news

Indeed. If that were true, ignorance would surely be bliss, and sending missionaries would condemn millions to hell.

 

Ransom,

Your declaring it a false assertion does not make it so. Millions have believed it to be true; I mentioned some of them before--Quakers, Salvationists, Wesleyans, Anabaptists, etc.

You said, "What you are saying is that even though God hates idolatry, if an idolator is an especially good idolator, God will accept him. That is absurd and contradictory to the jealous nature of God revealed in Scripture."

That is NOT what I'm saying, and you know it; that is a gross mischaracterization. Further, you have apparently not understood the message of Romans 2.

Those who go to hell do so because they do not choose to follow the light that is in them; if they do choose to follow it, more will be forthcoming. As I said, God judges them based on the use they make of the light they have--that is the message of Romans 2.

Sending missionaries condemns no one to hell; their destiny still depends on the choices they make, as does ours.

God knows the heart, and He judges accordingly.

The differences between the two points of view being presented here are as clear as day and night--and Calvinism is the night, pitch black and foreboding.

 

katy what is it that you believe in, how do you define your faith?

 

same question to you what do you believe saves a person? tell me how do you define true faith?

 

Michael Wrenn said:

Your declaring it a false assertion does not make it so.

Correct. It is a false assertion because the Bible does not teach it to be true.

Any mention of being in Christ or having Christ in us in the Scriptures refers to those who are in the Church, not to the lost.

Millions have believed it to be true; I mentioned some of them before--Quakers, Salvationists, Wesleyans, Anabaptists, etc.

This is the third time this week I have been told I ought to look to the Quakers, or the Sally Ann or what have you for my doctrine, and the second time by you. Why?

If the Quakers, Salvationists, Wesleyans, Anabaptists, etc. say that even the foulest heathen has "Christ in him," then they are wrong, because the Bible teaches no such thing. It is as simple as that. Yes, "millions" can be wrong, and often are.

That is NOT what I'm saying, and you know it; that is a gross mischaracterization.

Well, don't blame me if you can't express yourself clearly.

Further, you have apparently not understood the message of Romans 2.

The message of Romans 2 is the same as Romans 1 and 3: that all men are sinners and subject to condemnation. The only part that might be taken vaguely otherwise would be 2:14-16, which actually says nothing more than some pagans live upright lives - but even so, their thoughts will accuse them (v. 15).

Those who go to hell do so because they do not choose to follow the light that is in them

The Bible says the wages of sin (not insufficient light) is death; it also says that men will be judged according to their deeds (Rev. 20:11-15).

Not surprisingly, the Bible does not say anything about judging people according to whether they follow the "light that is in them."

Thus, I reject your interpretation of the last judgment, of Romans 2, John 1, and your rejection of eternal security on account of you being wrong.

 

If OSAS is true and the people who fall away were never saved to begin with.
Then none of us here can say we are going to heaven because maybe we will fall away from the faith later down the road and are decieved right now. People will say "oh, I believe in OSAS and those people (us) were never saved to begin with"
Does not make sense to me.

Katy,
I am right there with ya and I wonder the same things you are.
I go to a IFB church if you are wondering.

I go back and forth with this one but usually I try not to spend too much time on it anymore because I know the Lord is faithful and if I endure to the end, I will saved which I am willing to do.
So really it is not that big of deal unless you are wanting to go back to your old ways 100% or are living sin right now and are trying to see what you can get away with and still be saved. Note: Editorial you.

 

Yes Katy God did divorce Israel. He made them like the Gentile and when Christ came to this earth, He came for His lost sheep (Israel) who was now Gentile. Because of this, it gave opportunity to born Gentile to receive of gift of Eternal life through His ultimate sacrifice.

The people of Israel didn't loose their place with God, He had to do somethings to get their hearts right. When the time came, those that were His were still His because they believed, but to the others He says, I never knew you.

 

You are correct in asserting that the General Baptists did not hold to an eternal security position. This is because of the influences they had from Europeon Anabaptists who were highly arminian.

Thank God Particular Baptists rose up at nearly the same time in England following the salvation theology of Martin Luther and the other reformers. But I am sad to say that even the particular Baptists, under the influence of the reformers, who were still under some Catholic influence did not come completely away from works in this area.

While they believe the believers salvation was secure, it had to be in their opinion, accompinied by a holy life and much good works althought these works were not considered a part of justifacation in their position.

The reason they took such a position is that the Catholic Church accused those who taught Salvation by Faith alone were teaching that people could live anyway they wanted and their salvation had nothing to with their works.

The reformers, not wanting to sound like those who would encourage people to sin, and especially when the church was considered such a part of law and order, retorted back that works were still required as evidence of salvation, but not as part of justifacation.

I believe that the eternal security position of today finally rids the Gospel of all Catholic elements that even the reformers failed to remove.

We are saved by grace through faith alone. Our works do not merit, or even maintain or prove our salvation. They are done in love for Christ.
God rewards our works, not because he has to, but because he wants us to never believe that our works are some sort of payback for our salvation. It is a one way transaction - God to us - period.


IFBReformer

 

kathy
what is your opinion of those who never hear the gospel?

 

John 15:1-8 (KJV) I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

Romans 11:17-22 (KJV) And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

 

What would be fair is for all of us to be immediately condemned to hell for our sins. Those condemned to hell are not getting unfair treatment.

 

may i suggest that you do a search and look at some of the concerns regarding altar calls, this may help you understand somethings regarding human fairness vs. Gods Holy mercy and judgments. our lack of understanding of Gods views on mans accountability especially given our inability to live a sinless life, this may seem unfair in human terms.